1
00:00:10,570 --> 00:00:19,189
[Music]

2
00:00:27,479 --> 00:00:22,679
welcome to shattered reality with your

3
00:00:30,509 --> 00:00:27,489
hosts Kate Valentine and furs prepare to

4
00:00:35,540 --> 00:00:30,519
have your paradigm shifted in the truths

5
00:00:39,900 --> 00:00:35,550
questioned and now shattered reality

6
00:00:42,450 --> 00:00:39,910
hello hi hi freesia well another I guess

7
00:00:48,270 --> 00:00:42,460
another slating to be done that's the

8
00:00:51,419 --> 00:00:48,280
truth today mm-hmm it's July 17th 2018

9
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:51,429
good and I'm here with the ever

10
00:00:58,139 --> 00:00:54,370
wonderful and marvelous Kate Valentine

11
00:01:01,169 --> 00:00:58,149
and I am also with a ever wonderful and

12
00:01:04,770 --> 00:01:01,179
marvelous Ferruccio and yes we do pay

13
00:01:06,780 --> 00:01:04,780
each other for the compliments but we've

14
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:06,790
got an even more marvelous and wonderful

15
00:01:13,050 --> 00:01:09,250
guest today that is true we have

16
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:13,060
somebody who is really world renowned

17
00:01:21,750 --> 00:01:17,770
for his subject today we're going to be

18
00:01:25,530 --> 00:01:21,760
featuring on the show George P Hansen

19
00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:25,540
who wrote the seminal book the trickster

20
00:01:34,230 --> 00:01:30,250
and the paranormal and what I didn't

21
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:34,240
realize until recently is that he is a

22
00:01:42,180 --> 00:01:38,410
nearby individual he is somebody who

23
00:01:45,540 --> 00:01:42,190
lives in South Jersey mm-hmm now in

24
00:01:49,140 --> 00:01:45,550
discussing the trickster there's a lot

25
00:01:52,380 --> 00:01:49,150
of talk about liminality being on the

26
00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:52,390
edge and there is something very liminal

27
00:01:59,670 --> 00:01:56,530
about New Jersey because it's not New

28
00:02:02,940 --> 00:01:59,680
York City and it's not Philadelphia but

29
00:02:06,060 --> 00:02:02,950
it's in striking distance only a rocket

30
00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:06,070
ride way and it's not Washington and

31
00:02:11,070 --> 00:02:08,470
it's not Boston but it's also in

32
00:02:15,180 --> 00:02:11,080
striking distance so there is a definite

33
00:02:15,809 --> 00:02:15,190
liminality about New Jersey now getting

34
00:02:21,809 --> 00:02:15,819
back to

35
00:02:26,429 --> 00:02:21,819
guest George P Hansen he has he has a

36
00:02:32,339 --> 00:02:26,439
wonderful history in parapsychology and

37
00:02:35,369 --> 00:02:32,349
in skepticism but he he was at he was

38
00:02:38,789 --> 00:02:35,379
down in Raleigh North Carolina at the

39
00:02:41,580 --> 00:02:38,799
parapsychological research center there

40
00:02:42,959 --> 00:02:41,590
he has worked at the he's going to tell

41
00:02:43,409 --> 00:02:42,969
me the right name it just slipped my

42
00:02:47,190 --> 00:02:43,419
mind

43
00:02:50,580 --> 00:02:47,200
in Princeton he was also at one of the

44
00:02:54,479 --> 00:02:50,590
labs not pear but another lab so let's

45
00:02:57,300 --> 00:02:54,489
welcome George P Hanson and the

46
00:03:01,259 --> 00:02:57,310
trickster hi George welcome to the show

47
00:03:04,589 --> 00:03:01,269
well thank you for having me make it

48
00:03:07,050 --> 00:03:04,599
clear I was in Durham North Carolina at

49
00:03:09,030 --> 00:03:07,060
what is now called the Rhine Research

50
00:03:12,030 --> 00:03:09,040
Center it was the Institute for

51
00:03:13,860 --> 00:03:12,040
parapsychology where I was there and I

52
00:03:15,689 --> 00:03:13,870
was there first in three years and then

53
00:03:18,770 --> 00:03:15,699
I worked at psychophysical research

54
00:03:22,199 --> 00:03:18,780
laboratories in Princeton for five years

55
00:03:24,899 --> 00:03:22,209
our pair was the Brand X laboratory I

56
00:03:29,189 --> 00:03:24,909
was rather sharp critic of that work

57
00:03:33,300 --> 00:03:29,199
actually is that because of the fact of

58
00:03:36,809 --> 00:03:33,310
it being a machine kind of situation

59
00:03:40,409 --> 00:03:36,819
with the with the random number

60
00:03:42,869 --> 00:03:40,419
generators no I criticized their

61
00:03:46,140 --> 00:03:42,879
statistical and methodology in fact I

62
00:03:48,089 --> 00:03:46,150
wrote a paper on them with two rather

63
00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:48,099
well-known statisticians within the

64
00:03:51,059 --> 00:03:49,449
field and one eventually became

65
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:51,069
president of the American Statistical

66
00:03:57,319 --> 00:03:53,650
Association so it was more of a

67
00:04:01,499 --> 00:03:57,329
technical critique of methods and

68
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:01,509
analyses okay all right and and would

69
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:04,810
you repeat the name of the lab that you

70
00:04:11,399 --> 00:04:07,810
worked at in Princeton and its

71
00:04:14,069 --> 00:04:11,409
affiliations please okay it it was a

72
00:04:16,890 --> 00:04:14,079
privately funded laboratory in Princeton

73
00:04:18,899 --> 00:04:16,900
I was called the psychophysical Research

74
00:04:20,099 --> 00:04:18,909
Laboratories it was headed up by a guy

75
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:20,109
named Charles honorton

76
00:04:25,730 --> 00:04:22,930
and the funding came primarily from the

77
00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:25,740
McDonald foundation james s mcdonnell

78
00:04:29,159 --> 00:04:28,330
was head of McDonnell Douglas Aircraft

79
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:29,169
and

80
00:04:35,700 --> 00:04:32,650
a very strong personal interest in the

81
00:04:38,309 --> 00:04:35,710
paranormal and related fields in fact

82
00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:38,319
the some of the people who work for them

83
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:42,849
have continued to be involved in the UFO

84
00:04:49,769 --> 00:04:46,810
topic as well as parapsychology related

85
00:04:52,439 --> 00:04:49,779
matters well it seems that these fields

86
00:04:56,219 --> 00:04:52,449
are very very related their field of

87
00:04:58,950 --> 00:04:56,229
parapsychology UFOs and remote viewing

88
00:05:01,409 --> 00:04:58,960
all are very related and we are going to

89
00:05:05,309 --> 00:05:01,419
get into a little bit of that a bit

90
00:05:07,439 --> 00:05:05,319
later but to start off with the second

91
00:05:09,540 --> 00:05:07,449
thing I want you to tell us about is a

92
00:05:11,730 --> 00:05:09,550
kind of general definition of the

93
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:11,740
trickster but the first thing I would

94
00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:15,849
like to ask you is what was the reason

95
00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:20,050
that you initially got involved in the

96
00:05:28,559 --> 00:05:23,409
in the paranormal or supernatural as you

97
00:05:33,119 --> 00:05:28,569
use those terms just to sort of widely

98
00:05:35,639 --> 00:05:33,129
use them there is those two terms oh he

99
00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:35,649
does yes okay oh yeah yes yes the

100
00:05:41,909 --> 00:05:39,310
dictionary inanimate it's Webster's is

101
00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:41,919
very clear on that a lot of people don't

102
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:44,710
like that but that's actually the common

103
00:05:48,779 --> 00:05:47,050
usage anyway as far as my personal

104
00:05:51,540 --> 00:05:48,789
background an interest in in the

105
00:05:53,670 --> 00:05:51,550
paranormal started in the mid 70s this

106
00:05:56,219 --> 00:05:53,680
was a time of what was called the

107
00:05:59,420 --> 00:05:56,229
psychic explosion there was a huge

108
00:06:02,489 --> 00:05:59,430
amount of interest mainstream television

109
00:06:07,469 --> 00:06:02,499
was tearing programs there were movies a

110
00:06:10,469 --> 00:06:07,479
lot of books came out and I was living

111
00:06:14,670 --> 00:06:10,479
in Kansas City at the time and there was

112
00:06:16,110 --> 00:06:14,680
a free university you pay a dollar and

113
00:06:18,149 --> 00:06:16,120
you can take a course some of the

114
00:06:20,550 --> 00:06:18,159
courses lasted only one week some

115
00:06:23,309 --> 00:06:20,560
courses asked lasted maybe six or seven

116
00:06:27,450 --> 00:06:23,319
weeks and there were things on

117
00:06:30,510 --> 00:06:27,460
witchcraft and reflexology and Turo

118
00:06:32,519 --> 00:06:30,520
and a whole variety of different topics

119
00:06:35,790 --> 00:06:32,529
and one of the courses that was offered

120
00:06:37,230 --> 00:06:35,800
was on dowsing well thought well that

121
00:06:41,540 --> 00:06:37,240
sounds interesting

122
00:06:45,170 --> 00:06:41,550
my dad claimed to be a dowser in fact

123
00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:45,180
he went out in our backyard and one to

124
00:06:51,050 --> 00:06:48,290
dig a well and he took a crowbar and

125
00:06:52,820 --> 00:06:51,060
find a spot he thought there'd be water

126
00:06:55,250 --> 00:06:52,830
well the neighbors sort laughed at him

127
00:06:57,170 --> 00:06:55,260
and my mother was not at all convinced

128
00:07:00,110 --> 00:06:57,180
he thought this is sort of a tall tale

129
00:07:04,730 --> 00:07:00,120
my dad was telling anyway he dug a well

130
00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:04,740
and struck water so my mother was still

131
00:07:11,330 --> 00:07:06,690
a little bit skeptical about the whole

132
00:07:14,210 --> 00:07:11,340
story but my dad found water so I was

133
00:07:17,030 --> 00:07:14,220
always open to the idea of dowsing

134
00:07:19,190 --> 00:07:17,040
because of that and in fact the time I

135
00:07:22,340 --> 00:07:19,200
was also working at an engineering

136
00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:22,350
company there and one of the principals

137
00:07:27,350 --> 00:07:24,330
of the company and I happened to go out

138
00:07:29,450 --> 00:07:27,360
on a job site and he took pair welding

139
00:07:33,590 --> 00:07:29,460
rods bent them and did those in himself

140
00:07:35,810 --> 00:07:33,600
so anyway the person who taught the

141
00:07:37,850 --> 00:07:35,820
course at the Free University in Kansas

142
00:07:39,530 --> 00:07:37,860
City taught it as sort of a psychic

143
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:39,540
skill and there were a number of

144
00:07:45,860 --> 00:07:42,810
psychics there in the class and he

145
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:45,870
taught meditation his way to sort of

146
00:07:51,650 --> 00:07:49,650
connect psychically and one thing led to

147
00:07:54,430 --> 00:07:51,660
another and I was hooked

148
00:07:56,810 --> 00:07:54,440
and I've been hooked ever since 1975

149
00:08:02,210 --> 00:07:56,820
this has been a major part of my life

150
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:02,220
the paranormal and related topics that's

151
00:08:09,620 --> 00:08:06,450
the short version went back and forth

152
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:09,630
though from the skeptic side to the to

153
00:08:14,690 --> 00:08:11,370
the I'm going to say believer or

154
00:08:17,420 --> 00:08:14,700
experience or side better better yet and

155
00:08:20,750 --> 00:08:17,430
and that that is of great interest to us

156
00:08:25,460 --> 00:08:20,760
because although we here at chattered

157
00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:25,470
reality are all experiencers we look at

158
00:08:30,290 --> 00:08:27,510
things a little skeptically so you know

159
00:08:34,130 --> 00:08:30,300
we don't want to swallow the plastic

160
00:08:38,570 --> 00:08:34,140
fish hole so to speak well yeah good

161
00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:38,580
point and I I was in Kansas City for

162
00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:41,910
till 1977 and I was very very involved

163
00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:44,940
and then I had the job offer out in

164
00:08:49,850 --> 00:08:46,590
California so I went out there and

165
00:08:52,700 --> 00:08:49,860
decided well I wonder is this stuff

166
00:08:54,860 --> 00:08:52,710
really real or have I been fooling

167
00:08:55,460 --> 00:08:54,870
myself so I started reading the

168
00:08:58,370 --> 00:08:55,470
skeptical

169
00:09:00,080 --> 00:08:58,380
literature and fortunately my was in

170
00:09:02,450 --> 00:09:00,090
Southern California and there were a lot

171
00:09:05,090 --> 00:09:02,460
of university libraries so I was able to

172
00:09:07,820 --> 00:09:05,100
go I subscribe to what was then called

173
00:09:10,460 --> 00:09:07,830
the skeptical Inquirer read that and

174
00:09:12,830 --> 00:09:10,470
then they would cite scientific articles

175
00:09:14,570 --> 00:09:12,840
and journals and I would go and read the

176
00:09:17,900 --> 00:09:14,580
scientific articles and compare them

177
00:09:19,940 --> 00:09:17,910
side-by-side in the library and I

178
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:19,950
started realizing the skeptics were

179
00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:22,970
making a lot of errors they were not

180
00:09:28,430 --> 00:09:25,950
accurately reporting on what actual

181
00:09:30,170 --> 00:09:28,440
science was so I got much more

182
00:09:32,060 --> 00:09:30,180
interested at that point and at that

183
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:32,070
point I started really reading the

184
00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:34,050
serious literature and became convinced

185
00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:37,650
there is something here and I always

186
00:09:42,710 --> 00:09:39,510
have had an interest in the skeptics

187
00:09:45,940 --> 00:09:42,720
because on occasion they leveled some

188
00:09:48,550 --> 00:09:45,950
very very good critiques most of it

189
00:09:52,670 --> 00:09:48,560
whether poor but there were a few

190
00:09:56,390 --> 00:09:52,680
notably people like Ray Hyman and Martin

191
00:09:59,150 --> 00:09:56,400
Gardner really were pretty sharp most of

192
00:10:01,370 --> 00:09:59,160
the others not so sharp but I kept and I

193
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:01,380
still pay attention and I still go back

194
00:10:09,850 --> 00:10:05,850
and read some of their works yes so but

195
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:09,860
I found overall the pro paranormal

196
00:10:16,930 --> 00:10:14,130
position to be far better supported well

197
00:10:19,970 --> 00:10:16,940
the paranormal has the same problem and

198
00:10:23,260 --> 00:10:19,980
almost all of these fields like even UFO

199
00:10:27,140 --> 00:10:23,270
for example that you have all this

200
00:10:30,350 --> 00:10:27,150
observations but no hard data and the

201
00:10:34,010 --> 00:10:30,360
sort of the orthodoxy of science demands

202
00:10:37,490 --> 00:10:34,020
hard data and it's just not possible to

203
00:10:39,530 --> 00:10:37,500
get it oh yes it is there is plenty of

204
00:10:42,530 --> 00:10:39,540
hard data in the laboratory there's a

205
00:10:44,750 --> 00:10:42,540
lot of hard data even in in the UFO

206
00:10:47,270 --> 00:10:44,760
field I think there is more coming out

207
00:10:50,270 --> 00:10:47,280
now that's a little bit different field

208
00:10:52,220 --> 00:10:50,280
but there are metal samples that are

209
00:10:54,860 --> 00:10:52,230
being analyzed and in the laboratory

210
00:10:56,540 --> 00:10:54,870
there are have been literally thousands

211
00:10:59,540 --> 00:10:56,550
of experiments done under controlled

212
00:11:01,370 --> 00:10:59,550
conditions that's hard data it is but

213
00:11:04,910 --> 00:11:01,380
there's also there's another part the

214
00:11:07,790 --> 00:11:04,920
sort of soft data and it's for example

215
00:11:08,750 --> 00:11:07,800
let's say you enjoy the psychological

216
00:11:13,009 --> 00:11:08,760
experiments or

217
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:13,019
to work well matter and efficacy and

218
00:11:17,930 --> 00:11:16,290
safety of the same types of statistical

219
00:11:20,990 --> 00:11:17,940
methods are used the same types of

220
00:11:26,230 --> 00:11:21,000
double-blind procedures are used this is

221
00:11:29,930 --> 00:11:26,240
Stanton the drug industry is you know

222
00:11:33,740 --> 00:11:29,940
billions of dollars a year industry it

223
00:11:36,079 --> 00:11:33,750
used the same types of statistics and

224
00:11:39,889 --> 00:11:36,089
the same types of double-blind

225
00:11:41,810 --> 00:11:39,899
procedures what I was actually getting

226
00:11:44,329 --> 00:11:41,820
at was for example if you enjoy

227
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:44,339
something like the color blue

228
00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:46,320
there's definitely hard data it's a

229
00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:49,260
certain light frequency open and shut

230
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:53,310
but there's also um that observational

231
00:11:59,240 --> 00:11:56,370
quality to blue like why would you like

232
00:12:01,550 --> 00:11:59,250
blue and I was trying to get it that's a

233
00:12:04,699 --> 00:12:01,560
difficult part to me like with

234
00:12:08,509 --> 00:12:04,709
paranormal there's a certain sense of it

235
00:12:10,759 --> 00:12:08,519
being right and being very hard to prove

236
00:12:13,730 --> 00:12:10,769
it right or difficult to prove it right

237
00:12:17,180 --> 00:12:13,740
and that was the point is getting it

238
00:12:19,550 --> 00:12:17,190
obviously if you do get enough

239
00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:19,560
statistics and you you can start to

240
00:12:24,259 --> 00:12:21,690
perhaps if you quantify it maybe then

241
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:24,269
you can qualify it but it you know what

242
00:12:28,819 --> 00:12:26,250
I mean there's just always that softness

243
00:12:31,699 --> 00:12:28,829
to it as opposed to I don't know let's

244
00:12:34,730 --> 00:12:31,709
say wiring a TV set or something okay

245
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:34,740
but that's true for pharmaceutical

246
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:37,050
products as well sometimes they work

247
00:12:44,180 --> 00:12:39,839
sometimes they don't but then you get

248
00:12:46,819 --> 00:12:44,190
into the it's and sometimes they don't

249
00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:46,829
even under and sometimes they don't even

250
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:49,920
understand how they work yes you know

251
00:12:56,660 --> 00:12:54,560
there are I spent some years in

252
00:12:59,449 --> 00:12:56,670
pharmaceutical advertising work and I

253
00:13:01,069 --> 00:12:59,459
read probably hundreds and hundreds of

254
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:01,079
what's called prescribing information

255
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:03,810
looking at mechanisms of action and

256
00:13:08,780 --> 00:13:07,050
often they were speculative and they

257
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:08,790
would admit they didn't really know how

258
00:13:15,650 --> 00:13:13,680
the drugs worked so well yeah to the

259
00:13:17,630 --> 00:13:15,660
state no one even knows how honest Asia

260
00:13:20,329 --> 00:13:17,640
works everybody knows what it does but

261
00:13:22,130 --> 00:13:20,339
nobody knows what no it doesn't but but

262
00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:22,140
that but that I mean I don't mean to

263
00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:24,150
raise this point is a skeptical thing I

264
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:25,980
think it's one of the things that

265
00:13:31,580 --> 00:13:28,650
involves a lot of the general public as

266
00:13:33,650 --> 00:13:31,590
opposed to a lot of people don't want to

267
00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:33,660
go into IT research but there is a

268
00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:39,060
certain charm to paranormal not not so

269
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:41,910
much that so that there's like that

270
00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:43,650
undefined quality to it and I think

271
00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:46,320
that's what draws people to it well

272
00:13:53,020 --> 00:13:51,390
there is certainly an ambiguous quality

273
00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:53,030
to it there's no question about that

274
00:13:59,200 --> 00:13:55,710
these are what are called liminal

275
00:14:02,240 --> 00:13:59,210
phenomena and that's a fairly lengthy

276
00:14:04,190 --> 00:14:02,250
discussion in and of itself but yes

277
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:04,200
there is a certain uncertainty and

278
00:14:11,270 --> 00:14:07,290
instability and there is a numinous

279
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:11,280
quality to many of these experiences it

280
00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:14,730
invokes something of a divine order or

281
00:14:21,170 --> 00:14:17,700
something outside of us something others

282
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:21,180
something different and that's very that

283
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:22,770
can be very intriguing but it can also

284
00:14:29,210 --> 00:14:25,680
be frightening yes and that leads me to

285
00:14:33,370 --> 00:14:29,220
what I was going to say about many of

286
00:14:38,540 --> 00:14:33,380
the skeptics particularly the folks that

287
00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:38,550
you know are scientists and perhaps have

288
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:41,040
high degrees and have positions of

289
00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:44,130
authority at universities and things

290
00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:47,580
like that a lot of these folks I believe

291
00:14:55,550 --> 00:14:51,270
are skeptics because they don't want to

292
00:14:59,410 --> 00:14:55,560
lose control and once you begin to think

293
00:15:05,000 --> 00:14:59,420
of consciousness as being the primary

294
00:15:08,990 --> 00:15:05,010
motivator of things and not physics then

295
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:09,000
you lose control and these folks don't

296
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:11,760
or don't not only don't want to lose

297
00:15:16,580 --> 00:15:14,250
control they're terrified of losing

298
00:15:20,390 --> 00:15:16,590
control do you think that that's a

299
00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:20,400
reasonable thought uh in my experience a

300
00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:22,710
lot of people say this I've had

301
00:15:27,050 --> 00:15:24,600
arguments about this with a number of

302
00:15:29,690 --> 00:15:27,060
other people on podcast and elsewhere

303
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:29,700
I've gone to quite a number of skeptics

304
00:15:34,070 --> 00:15:31,410
groups I used to go there conventions

305
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:34,080
somewhat regularly and the local

306
00:15:38,390 --> 00:15:35,130
meetings

307
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:38,400
this skeptical community is in decline

308
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:40,890
now for a variety of reasons so I don't

309
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:43,110
go as frequently but no I really don't

310
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:46,010
think that they are afraid of it

311
00:15:53,210 --> 00:15:48,240
psychologically I think they just think

312
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:53,220
it's silly a waste of time and leading

313
00:16:00,020 --> 00:15:55,490
to a certain amount of irrationality

314
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:00,030
which is perhaps a more dangerous thing

315
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:03,210
I the sceptics I've known I don't see

316
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:05,810
any like fear a lot of number

317
00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:08,490
parapsychologists to explain skepticism

318
00:16:13,130 --> 00:16:11,190
as fear of sigh I don't buy that okay

319
00:16:15,980 --> 00:16:13,140
the people I just don't

320
00:16:18,170 --> 00:16:15,990
I think that's an explanation they come

321
00:16:19,940 --> 00:16:18,180
up with but they they really have not

322
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:19,950
been able to defend I think it's a waste

323
00:16:24,650 --> 00:16:21,450
of time to look at it from that

324
00:16:26,690 --> 00:16:24,660
standpoint okay we won't do that I think

325
00:16:28,660 --> 00:16:26,700
they're more annoyed and fearful don't

326
00:16:32,030 --> 00:16:28,670
you think they're annoyed by it oh

327
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:32,040
definitely annoyed why would they be so

328
00:16:40,370 --> 00:16:34,320
annoyed by it - that that always sort of

329
00:16:43,790 --> 00:16:40,380
puzzled me okay that gets to a it gets

330
00:16:47,330 --> 00:16:43,800
to a much larger issue and I don't

331
00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:47,340
believe psychological explanations are

332
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:50,520
very effective here I think sociological

333
00:16:58,310 --> 00:16:55,410
explanations are they are part of a the

334
00:17:00,410 --> 00:16:58,320
academics typically that are involved

335
00:17:05,689 --> 00:17:00,420
with skepticism typically have fairly

336
00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:05,699
high status okay these phenomena and

337
00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:08,550
they're in typically bureaucratic

338
00:17:16,189 --> 00:17:12,030
institutions academia is a very

339
00:17:18,410 --> 00:17:16,199
bureaucratic environment it's just

340
00:17:20,449 --> 00:17:18,420
there's different departments you and

341
00:17:22,550 --> 00:17:20,459
there's different levels of status

342
00:17:25,939 --> 00:17:22,560
there's the graduate students there's

343
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:25,949
adjunct professors associate professors

344
00:17:30,970 --> 00:17:28,050
assistant professors full professors

345
00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:30,980
it's a very very status conscious

346
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:34,790
environment these types of phenomena

347
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:36,090
inherently

348
00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:39,690
seem to occur where there is a leveling

349
00:17:47,420 --> 00:17:42,110
of status where status can

350
00:17:49,010 --> 00:17:47,430
considerations are no longer appropriate

351
00:17:51,890 --> 00:17:49,020
and this has been shown you

352
00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:51,900
earlier societies and the work on ritual

353
00:17:57,650 --> 00:17:54,960
and liminality discussed this at that

354
00:18:01,310 --> 00:17:57,660
great length so there is something and

355
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:01,320
there's a guy named Max Weber who is one

356
00:18:08,050 --> 00:18:04,770
of the founders of modern sociology and

357
00:18:13,610 --> 00:18:08,060
he talks about this and he talks about

358
00:18:17,870 --> 00:18:13,620
what he called the rationalization and

359
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:17,880
the disenchantment of the world and he

360
00:18:23,620 --> 00:18:20,610
went in into a lot of depth on this and

361
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:23,630
he talks about charisma a charismatic

362
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:27,930
Authority and he explicitly discusses in

363
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:32,930
his most famous works that charisma

364
00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:35,610
involves telepathy and things like

365
00:18:41,650 --> 00:18:38,910
miracles and weather control he's fully

366
00:18:45,910 --> 00:18:41,660
explicit on that and virtually no

367
00:18:49,010 --> 00:18:45,920
sociologists ever mentioned that because

368
00:18:52,910 --> 00:18:49,020
charismatic Authority is antithetical to

369
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:52,920
bureaucratic Authority so that that is I

370
00:18:59,960 --> 00:18:55,650
am very much into the idea of in rien

371
00:19:01,790 --> 00:18:59,970
santa the world myself however what I

372
00:19:05,090 --> 00:19:01,800
think that we need to get from you

373
00:19:09,260 --> 00:19:05,100
before we proceed for our listeners

374
00:19:11,090 --> 00:19:09,270
those who have some you know slight idea

375
00:19:13,340 --> 00:19:11,100
of what the trickster might be other

376
00:19:15,890 --> 00:19:13,350
people might be very conversant with it

377
00:19:21,020 --> 00:19:15,900
but could you just give us the short

378
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:21,030
version of the definition ok it would

379
00:19:24,110 --> 00:19:22,710
not be surprising if people are really

380
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:24,120
confused about what that word means

381
00:19:27,140 --> 00:19:25,650
because it means a lot of different

382
00:19:28,370 --> 00:19:27,150
things and it's used in a lot of

383
00:19:30,410 --> 00:19:28,380
different contexts

384
00:19:32,690 --> 00:19:30,420
I'll give you a couple deaf you

385
00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:32,700
definitions okay first of all the

386
00:19:39,470 --> 00:19:35,910
trickster is a character type found

387
00:19:42,380 --> 00:19:39,480
worldwide in mythology and folklore and

388
00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:42,390
there are probably over a hundred

389
00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:46,190
different characters so identified

390
00:19:51,230 --> 00:19:48,600
everything from the coyote of some

391
00:19:54,110 --> 00:19:51,240
certain North American Indian tribes to

392
00:19:58,160 --> 00:19:54,120
Hermes of the Greek mercury of the

393
00:20:01,790 --> 00:19:58,170
Romans Loki of the Norse SU of certain

394
00:20:02,970 --> 00:20:01,800
African tribes the their names from

395
00:20:06,810 --> 00:20:02,980
South America

396
00:20:10,170 --> 00:20:06,820
in in in the Mideast afar east the

397
00:20:12,810 --> 00:20:10,180
tricksters are pervasive so first of all

398
00:20:15,870 --> 00:20:12,820
it's a character type many many stories

399
00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:15,880
about these characters the second it can

400
00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:19,510
be considered an archetype and an

401
00:20:25,070 --> 00:20:21,520
archetype is also sort of a confusing

402
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:25,080
idea but it's basically a collection of

403
00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:27,250
characteristics that tend to cluster

404
00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:31,360
together and for my definition of the

405
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:32,830
trickster there's several

406
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:35,610
characteristics that I tend to emphasize

407
00:20:44,370 --> 00:20:40,450
one is deception of course they're

408
00:20:47,970 --> 00:20:44,380
tricky but also they're a bit of an

409
00:20:50,670 --> 00:20:47,980
outsider and they're sometimes marginal

410
00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:50,680
figures they don't they're not

411
00:20:55,170 --> 00:20:53,500
completely in the power structure

412
00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:55,180
they're not completely outside they're

413
00:21:01,890 --> 00:20:58,210
sort of in this in-between state they

414
00:21:10,220 --> 00:21:01,900
also tend to violate sexual taboos and

415
00:21:13,410 --> 00:21:10,230
taboos generally and they tend to be the

416
00:21:16,170 --> 00:21:13,420
shapeshifters they can appear one way

417
00:21:18,510 --> 00:21:16,180
and in certain North American Indian

418
00:21:21,870 --> 00:21:18,520
tribes it's explicitly recognized there

419
00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:21,880
is no particular character or shape that

420
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:26,710
will define the trickster so you've got

421
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:28,570
this ambiguity and uncertainty

422
00:21:36,570 --> 00:21:31,930
associated with them they may have

423
00:21:39,410 --> 00:21:36,580
uncertain sexuality for instance so it's

424
00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:39,420
these this kind of cluster of

425
00:21:45,380 --> 00:21:43,780
characteristics so that makes it a

426
00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:45,390
little difficult to conceptualize

427
00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:49,270
because ambiguity is still in here

428
00:21:56,730 --> 00:21:52,030
with the trickster that's an inherent

429
00:22:00,900 --> 00:21:56,740
property so it does take a little time

430
00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:00,910
and thinking to grasp that and think

431
00:22:06,540 --> 00:22:04,480
about the consequences so we can I think

432
00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:06,550
that's about as much of the definition

433
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:09,880
as I want to give right now okay but I

434
00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:12,310
think that might help that's very clear

435
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:16,430
yes that was that was very very clear

436
00:22:23,890 --> 00:22:20,330
and and you knew Victor Turner is that

437
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:23,900
correct why I never met him he died long

438
00:22:30,850 --> 00:22:27,370
before I got interested in his work okay

439
00:22:33,970 --> 00:22:30,860
year he died so excuse me I'm reading

440
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:33,980
you no no no no he died in the early

441
00:22:40,020 --> 00:22:37,850
eighties but he was and continues to be

442
00:22:42,430 --> 00:22:40,030
a very major influence on my thinking

443
00:22:44,770 --> 00:22:42,440
there's several other anthropologists

444
00:22:47,980 --> 00:22:44,780
also who have been very very influential

445
00:22:51,010 --> 00:22:47,990
but he was a make a major one well the

446
00:22:53,740 --> 00:22:51,020
inclusion of anthropology in the study

447
00:22:57,790 --> 00:22:53,750
of the paranormal is seeming to become

448
00:23:00,070 --> 00:22:57,800
more popular today of course one of our

449
00:23:03,549 --> 00:23:00,080
previous guests Stanley crypt there who

450
00:23:07,180 --> 00:23:03,559
is like you know the man as far as a lot

451
00:23:09,340 --> 00:23:07,190
of that is concerned he popularized that

452
00:23:13,030 --> 00:23:09,350
to an extent and you yourself included

453
00:23:16,990 --> 00:23:13,040
but today more and more people seem to

454
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:17,000
be talking about anthropology as being

455
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:22,000
the best way to look at the paranormal I

456
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:24,650
think it's a very good way I'm not sure

457
00:23:29,650 --> 00:23:26,330
if it's the best but I think it's pretty

458
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:29,660
close another person I'd really like to

459
00:23:35,830 --> 00:23:32,090
mention is Jack hunter yes it's a very

460
00:23:38,290 --> 00:23:35,840
interesting character over in the UK yes

461
00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:38,300
he started involved getting involved

462
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:41,470
when he was an undergraduate and he says

463
00:23:46,419 --> 00:23:43,910
when we first got into graduate school

464
00:23:50,140 --> 00:23:46,429
he started a journal called terror

465
00:23:52,930 --> 00:23:50,150
anthropology and I think and it's free

466
00:23:55,690 --> 00:23:52,940
its online there are a lot of back

467
00:23:57,549 --> 00:23:55,700
issues and a number of people in

468
00:23:59,260 --> 00:23:57,559
anthropology and from other fields have

469
00:24:01,600 --> 00:23:59,270
contributed to it

470
00:24:03,910 --> 00:24:01,610
he's more recently he has finished his

471
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:03,920
doctoral work recently he's got a number

472
00:24:09,970 --> 00:24:06,320
of books out I have written the foreword

473
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:09,980
for his most recent book so yes the

474
00:24:13,780 --> 00:24:12,050
interest in anthropology and the

475
00:24:16,060 --> 00:24:13,790
paranormal has definitely increased

476
00:24:18,669 --> 00:24:16,070
partly due to Stanley Crippen it is very

477
00:24:21,190 --> 00:24:18,679
early work but now it's being carried on

478
00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:21,200
by much younger guy named Jack hunter

479
00:24:27,310 --> 00:24:23,809
yes we would love to have him as a guest

480
00:24:29,919 --> 00:24:27,320
so we'll definitely be speaking to you

481
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:29,929
about Jack hunter privately perhaps a

482
00:24:36,999 --> 00:24:32,450
him as a guest because I am very very

483
00:24:40,509 --> 00:24:37,009
very won over by his method of research

484
00:24:44,830 --> 00:24:40,519
I find it very very interesting um I

485
00:24:51,129 --> 00:24:44,840
thought that maybe I could speak to you

486
00:24:54,190 --> 00:24:51,139
about my idea about my feeling about the

487
00:24:56,830 --> 00:24:54,200
trickster and you could you you could

488
00:24:59,560 --> 00:24:56,840
discuss it with me and maybe people

489
00:25:03,519 --> 00:24:59,570
because I would be giving somewhat

490
00:25:05,259 --> 00:25:03,529
concrete examples and you could not you

491
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:05,269
could correct me you could say correct

492
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:07,369
me or discuss it with me or argue with

493
00:25:14,049 --> 00:25:10,129
me I'm not a very big on arguing per se

494
00:25:20,529 --> 00:25:14,059
I usually don't argue but let's can we

495
00:25:26,609 --> 00:25:20,539
try something like that yes okay you

496
00:25:31,149 --> 00:25:26,619
have the idea of D structuring as a a

497
00:25:33,909 --> 00:25:31,159
window that opens for for the paranormal

498
00:25:35,789 --> 00:25:33,919
to come in when times are changing and

499
00:25:39,489 --> 00:25:35,799
things are D structuring and there is

500
00:25:42,909 --> 00:25:39,499
fluidity & ambu ambiguity and that

501
00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:42,919
allows for paradigm shifts in our way of

502
00:25:50,399 --> 00:25:45,769
looking at things and I wonder if that

503
00:25:53,769 --> 00:25:50,409
could be because we are basically

504
00:25:56,049 --> 00:25:53,779
consciousness living in a physical body

505
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:56,059
and when people's consciousness begins

506
00:26:01,930 --> 00:25:59,360
to change about a subject and there is

507
00:26:04,989 --> 00:26:01,940
the beginnings of a paradigm shift it

508
00:26:09,869 --> 00:26:04,999
can seem because reality is changing it

509
00:26:13,419 --> 00:26:09,879
can seem like the paranormal oh yes and

510
00:26:16,149 --> 00:26:13,429
there's a number of examples of this one

511
00:26:19,659 --> 00:26:16,159
that I use is the fall of the Berlin

512
00:26:22,299 --> 00:26:19,669
Wall and the collapse of communism when

513
00:26:24,519 --> 00:26:22,309
that happened in 89 early 90s there was

514
00:26:27,749 --> 00:26:24,529
a major upsurge of interest in the

515
00:26:32,049 --> 00:26:27,759
paranormal all across the Eastern Bloc

516
00:26:34,749 --> 00:26:32,059
if you look back in the 1970s well what

517
00:26:36,850 --> 00:26:34,759
did we have well we had Watergate we

518
00:26:39,730 --> 00:26:36,860
also had before that the sexual

519
00:26:42,999 --> 00:26:39,740
revolution the drug culture all of that

520
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:43,009
the women's movement all of them civil

521
00:26:47,159 --> 00:26:43,850
rights movement

522
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:47,169
all of that too proceeded and was

523
00:26:52,299 --> 00:26:50,510
contiguous happen about the same time as

524
00:26:55,930 --> 00:26:52,309
the rise of the interest in the

525
00:26:59,529 --> 00:26:55,940
paranormal so yes these shifts are very

526
00:27:02,409 --> 00:26:59,539
important and typically you will find an

527
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:02,419
increase in interest and involvement and

528
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:04,730
reports well the more important thing is

529
00:27:10,450 --> 00:27:08,090
to these shifts cause this or dues that

530
00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:10,460
type of paranormal activity causes the

531
00:27:16,539 --> 00:27:13,760
shifts oh that's a great question and I

532
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:16,549
would say that you can't determine that

533
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:20,450
for they go they go together the idea of

534
00:27:25,659 --> 00:27:23,510
cause and effect is something that the

535
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:25,669
trickster tends to blur which comes

536
00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:28,730
first which causes the other well it

537
00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:32,600
made they work together and if you start

538
00:27:38,020 --> 00:27:34,510
getting this constellation of

539
00:27:40,029 --> 00:27:38,030
characteristics in in one way it may

540
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:40,039
reflect in other parts of society or

541
00:27:49,149 --> 00:27:43,450
other parts of the universe and so

542
00:27:50,980 --> 00:27:49,159
things the cause-effect like what it

543
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:50,990
sort of hurts back to what Carl Jung

544
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:53,090
talked about is synchronicity in a

545
00:27:59,860 --> 00:27:56,450
causal connecting principle yeah and the

546
00:28:04,779 --> 00:27:59,870
trickster is often associated with

547
00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:04,789
synchronicity so I think yes it's one

548
00:28:09,070 --> 00:28:06,830
can try to claim a cause-effect

549
00:28:11,020 --> 00:28:09,080
relationship but if you step back it's

550
00:28:13,180 --> 00:28:11,030
not quite so clear but it's a really

551
00:28:15,430 --> 00:28:13,190
good question so you think of the

552
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:15,440
trickster son of an agent of change then

553
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:19,520
oh definitely and tricksters arise in

554
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:21,890
ages of change I think Donald Trump it

555
00:28:28,270 --> 00:28:26,210
clearly has trickster qualities another

556
00:28:31,390 --> 00:28:28,280
person even more strikingly tricksters

557
00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:31,400
not prominent ISM much now is Milo yeah

558
00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:34,070
innopolis and he was so trickster like I

559
00:28:40,029 --> 00:28:36,400
think he sort of self-destructed

560
00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:40,039
adjusted himself um oh yes and that

561
00:28:46,090 --> 00:28:42,110
that's a comment when someone becomes

562
00:28:46,659 --> 00:28:46,100
too tricksters they very well can self

563
00:28:49,570 --> 00:28:46,669
destruct

564
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:49,580
seriously it should it is a risk yeah I

565
00:28:57,390 --> 00:28:54,320
could see that I I wanted to go back to

566
00:29:01,380 --> 00:28:57,400
the idea of you speak of the

567
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:01,390
trickster as a single entity is that

568
00:29:07,950 --> 00:29:05,170
with do you do that with the reason or

569
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:07,960
do you think it's a single entity or a

570
00:29:13,650 --> 00:29:12,250
single zeitgeist almost that's not quite

571
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:13,660
the right word but I think you know

572
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:16,210
where I'm going that it's you know it's

573
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:18,910
a very important question and again the

574
00:29:25,230 --> 00:29:21,850
way we think in our culture you start I

575
00:29:27,870 --> 00:29:25,240
use the term and and historically and

576
00:29:31,110 --> 00:29:27,880
myth there is a name given to it so

577
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:31,120
people think it is an entity no it's

578
00:29:36,650 --> 00:29:33,970
more it's more abstract than that it's a

579
00:29:40,290 --> 00:29:36,660
collection of these characteristics and

580
00:29:43,140 --> 00:29:40,300
there's almost no way we have in our

581
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:43,150
culture to convey that idea succinctly

582
00:29:49,950 --> 00:29:46,240
but it's more like a zeitgeist or a

583
00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:49,960
ghost or a spirit somehow that's out

584
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:52,960
there you can see it manifest in a

585
00:29:58,140 --> 00:29:55,210
variety of ways and different people and

586
00:30:01,830 --> 00:29:58,150
I talk about the trickster manifesting

587
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:01,840
in individuals and in small groups and

588
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:06,970
even in entire cultures he sometimes in

589
00:30:13,650 --> 00:30:09,330
larger organizations when they start to

590
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:13,660
become unstable and even in nations the

591
00:30:18,510 --> 00:30:16,570
trickster archetype can start to

592
00:30:22,890 --> 00:30:18,520
manifest there can be blurring of

593
00:30:25,770 --> 00:30:22,900
boundaries the old rules no longer are

594
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:25,780
enforced or apply and in those types of

595
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:28,000
situations in those transition states

596
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:32,490
you have a trickster constellation so so

597
00:30:37,020 --> 00:30:35,770
yes it's your question is very very good

598
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:37,030
and very very important for

599
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:38,650
understanding the nature nature of the

600
00:30:46,410 --> 00:30:41,730
trickster we talk about it as a single

601
00:30:48,870 --> 00:30:46,420
individual but in in more current it'd

602
00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:48,880
be clear to understand in a more

603
00:30:56,490 --> 00:30:51,790
ambiguous and a multi-faceted aspect

604
00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:56,500
multifaceted way about a year ago we had

605
00:31:02,850 --> 00:30:59,440
a woman who I'm sure you know of and you

606
00:31:05,610 --> 00:31:02,860
probably know this woman is quite

607
00:31:08,970 --> 00:31:05,620
intelligent and very well regarded her

608
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:08,980
name is Leslie Kane do you know her okay

609
00:31:13,049 --> 00:31:11,110
so I've never met her

610
00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:13,059
I know ever and I've read some of her

611
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:15,700
work I've I've met her I wouldn't say I

612
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:17,890
know her like personally too much I've

613
00:31:24,180 --> 00:31:20,850
met her and we interviewed her here on

614
00:31:29,190 --> 00:31:24,190
shattered reality podcasts on her book

615
00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:29,200
about the after death experience and it

616
00:31:35,340 --> 00:31:31,600
was a fascinating book and she did some

617
00:31:38,639 --> 00:31:35,350
wonderful research but she boiled it

618
00:31:42,149 --> 00:31:38,649
down to a binary conclusion that it was

619
00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:42,159
either super SCI or it was you know your

620
00:31:48,299 --> 00:31:44,710
dead relatives or her dead relatives or

621
00:31:53,310 --> 00:31:48,309
whoever's dead relatives and I kind of

622
00:31:55,919 --> 00:31:53,320
like said to her what about if it is

623
00:31:57,930 --> 00:31:55,929
neither what about if sometimes it's one

624
00:32:00,629 --> 00:31:57,940
thing sometimes it's another and then

625
00:32:03,779 --> 00:32:00,639
sometimes it's a trickster is sort of

626
00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:03,789
thing like a dis kornpett entity and for

627
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:06,190
me many of the times that I am

628
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:09,250
confronted with the trickster it seems

629
00:32:14,879 --> 00:32:12,330
like it's a disc discarnate entity

630
00:32:18,060 --> 00:32:14,889
perhaps something that was never human

631
00:32:22,740 --> 00:32:18,070
but does have some form of a personality

632
00:32:26,129 --> 00:32:22,750
and does enjoy in some way tricking the

633
00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:26,139
human and I I'm going to go forward with

634
00:32:32,279 --> 00:32:28,510
this for a second before I ask you to

635
00:32:35,250 --> 00:32:32,289
speak to it and and sometimes it just

636
00:32:39,570 --> 00:32:35,260
seems is this is one of the reasons why

637
00:32:42,659 --> 00:32:39,580
I don't go out and do mediumship because

638
00:32:45,870 --> 00:32:42,669
I've seen too many instances where

639
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:45,880
people were given false information and

640
00:32:51,570 --> 00:32:48,880
it would seem as though humans believe

641
00:32:53,970 --> 00:32:51,580
that they're the crown of creation and

642
00:32:57,149 --> 00:32:53,980
when in fact there could be lots of

643
00:33:02,460 --> 00:32:57,159
other things between the human being and

644
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:02,470
the ultimate Godhead I resist using the

645
00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:04,000
word God because it has so many other

646
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:06,240
implications the universal consciousness

647
00:33:11,789 --> 00:33:08,710
whatever you want to call it the supreme

648
00:33:14,310 --> 00:33:11,799
one okay so could you speak to that a

649
00:33:18,659 --> 00:33:14,320
little bit well I am in complete

650
00:33:22,350 --> 00:33:18,669
agreement with what you said there to

651
00:33:23,890 --> 00:33:22,360
identify a particular source of psychic

652
00:33:26,530 --> 00:33:23,900
information Oh

653
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:26,540
or conceptualize it in a binary fashion

654
00:33:36,610 --> 00:33:31,730
no I think that's flat-out wrong there

655
00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:36,620
are probably multiple sources for these

656
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:38,510
types of phenomena even in the

657
00:33:46,590 --> 00:33:41,930
laboratory where we try to control this

658
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:46,600
as best we can we realize we cannot

659
00:33:54,130 --> 00:33:50,960
fully define where the source of ESP or

660
00:33:55,390 --> 00:33:54,140
PK comes from it could come from the

661
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:55,400
future

662
00:34:01,090 --> 00:33:58,250
there are many expect ory based

663
00:34:04,990 --> 00:34:01,100
experiments that suggest people in the

664
00:34:07,060 --> 00:34:05,000
future may influence past events oh yes

665
00:34:08,919 --> 00:34:07,070
that's one hard to wrap one's head

666
00:34:11,919 --> 00:34:08,929
around but there are laboratory

667
00:34:15,550 --> 00:34:11,929
experiments some very tightly controlled

668
00:34:18,430 --> 00:34:15,560
that do suggest that so I am much more

669
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:18,440
in alignment with what you say than what

670
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:21,530
Leslie Kane would say well I just wanted

671
00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:23,690
to defend Leslie just for one minute I

672
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:25,730
think she did some very interesting and

673
00:34:31,330 --> 00:34:28,610
marvelous research it's just her binary

674
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:31,340
conclusion that I would argue with so

675
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:34,130
yeah she she certainly had a lot more

676
00:34:40,690 --> 00:34:37,490
background in the UFO topic she jumped

677
00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:40,700
into the life after death issue with a

678
00:34:47,950 --> 00:34:44,000
lot less background I don't think that

679
00:34:53,950 --> 00:34:47,960
book is as valuable or as her work on

680
00:34:58,660 --> 00:34:53,960
the UFO topic well I am interested in a

681
00:35:01,030 --> 00:34:58,670
recent resurgence in the work of one of

682
00:35:04,750 --> 00:35:01,040
the people that I believe was one of

683
00:35:10,510 --> 00:35:04,760
your mentors which is w/e Cox and the

684
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:10,520
and the mini lab stuff which I got into

685
00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:13,040
the actual study of these things as a

686
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:15,680
study a little bit late because I was

687
00:35:21,970 --> 00:35:18,800
working bringing up a child and and

688
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:21,980
working very hard at events and having

689
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:24,530
clients and dancing and doing a lot of

690
00:35:29,350 --> 00:35:26,330
things and so I kind of missed out on

691
00:35:31,330 --> 00:35:29,360
doing some of the research or reading

692
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:31,340
that I should have done at an earlier

693
00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:35,210
day but now I'm seeing that some of the

694
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:37,310
older research that seemed

695
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:39,410
have been disappearing there is a

696
00:35:46,540 --> 00:35:42,410
resurgence in interest in and one of the

697
00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:46,550
things is the mini lab and you wrote a

698
00:35:53,740 --> 00:35:51,110
paper which I read online about Cox and

699
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:53,750
the mini lab and do you want to speak to

700
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:54,560
that at all

701
00:36:02,250 --> 00:35:57,200
sure well first of all caucus was never

702
00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:02,260
a mental hurt to me he was a colleague

703
00:36:09,940 --> 00:36:05,990
he was a very odd character white

704
00:36:12,940 --> 00:36:09,950
liminal problem in fact but I did

705
00:36:15,790 --> 00:36:12,950
dedicate my book to him you know I have

706
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:15,800
a lot of respect for what he did but

707
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:19,520
Edie Conte had some serious limitations

708
00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:23,090
should we say he was very good in some

709
00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:27,680
areas and very limited in others but I

710
00:36:35,650 --> 00:36:30,710
still have respect for him because he

711
00:36:38,050 --> 00:36:35,660
devoted his life to study this the

712
00:36:41,950 --> 00:36:38,060
phenomena in ways very few people have

713
00:36:44,530 --> 00:36:41,960
have ever done so the mini lab has

714
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:44,540
gotten renewed interest in fact there is

715
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:48,170
a rather new book out by James McLennan

716
00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:51,010
who's a sociologist who spent decades

717
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:54,110
following this Arab group the title of

718
00:37:00,940 --> 00:36:56,930
the book is the entity letters and it's

719
00:37:04,090 --> 00:37:00,950
published by anomalous books and it's if

720
00:37:08,620 --> 00:37:04,100
you want details on that work it's a

721
00:37:11,110 --> 00:37:08,630
very very intriguing case I spent a fair

722
00:37:13,810 --> 00:37:11,120
amount of time I did formal experiments

723
00:37:16,810 --> 00:37:13,820
with them and I with the serac group and

724
00:37:20,290 --> 00:37:16,820
my conclusions was that fraud was

725
00:37:22,570 --> 00:37:20,300
clearly attempted I spent five nights in

726
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:22,580
the home I observed a number of

727
00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:24,800
phenomena I don't have a good

728
00:37:31,060 --> 00:37:27,470
explanation for however they were not

729
00:37:35,050 --> 00:37:31,070
the events in the home of this the

730
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:35,060
Surratt people we're not under fully

731
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:39,770
controlled conditions but I can't prove

732
00:37:44,170 --> 00:37:42,590
that they were fraud and I can't prove

733
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:44,180
that they were absolutely genuine oh

734
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:46,730
just a cut in quickly what what are you

735
00:37:58,730 --> 00:37:51,530
referring to as a mini lab okay

736
00:38:03,829 --> 00:37:58,740
excuse me a mini lab excuse me

737
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:03,839
a mini lab is basically an inverted fish

738
00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:08,730
tank hmm that is I hope you can edit

739
00:38:14,210 --> 00:38:11,910
this because yes you want to get water

740
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:14,220
or something I've got some water right

741
00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:18,480
with me I have had a bit of a cough for

742
00:38:32,150 --> 00:38:29,400
a while this is really kicking in this

743
00:38:34,670 --> 00:38:32,160
is basically a study in what's called

744
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:34,680
macro peak a physical movement of

745
00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:39,290
objects and what ed Cox did was put

746
00:38:51,309 --> 00:38:45,119
objects in an inverted fish tank but it

747
00:39:01,609 --> 00:38:53,960
monitor what happened in the mini lab

748
00:39:05,059 --> 00:39:01,619
and he had contained a number of film

749
00:39:09,740 --> 00:39:05,069
strips of things moving very very

750
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:09,750
bizarre events it looked ridiculous

751
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:13,440
it looked fraudulent it looked really

752
00:39:27,859 --> 00:39:18,690
silly but the circumstances around it

753
00:39:30,849 --> 00:39:27,869
are very very peculiar if the the group

754
00:39:34,910 --> 00:39:30,859
was started by a guy named John Neihart

755
00:39:37,309 --> 00:39:34,920
who wrote the book Black Elk speaks he

756
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:37,319
was a professor at the University of

757
00:39:43,460 --> 00:39:40,890
Missouri and he gathered around him a

758
00:39:46,970 --> 00:39:43,470
group of students in the early 1960s and

759
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:46,980
they conducted séances and they

760
00:39:55,789 --> 00:39:51,210
communicated is there there's music on

761
00:40:00,770 --> 00:39:55,799
the live yeah that's for sure

762
00:40:03,460 --> 00:40:00,780
it's the trickster okay okay see I see

763
00:40:05,620 --> 00:40:03,470
your your coffees troubling news and

764
00:40:10,359 --> 00:40:05,630
phones are going

765
00:40:11,859 --> 00:40:10,369
it said trickster I'm telling you but

766
00:40:14,620 --> 00:40:11,869
that that's interested so I didn't

767
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:14,630
realize it it involves psychokinesis

768
00:40:19,870 --> 00:40:17,690
because I did I had a friend who could

769
00:40:23,710 --> 00:40:19,880
absolutely I mean she did have many many

770
00:40:25,330 --> 00:40:23,720
occasions not to for anything I mean

771
00:40:27,070 --> 00:40:25,340
we're just a bunch of people talking and

772
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:27,080
she got yeah whoop says boom off and

773
00:40:33,670 --> 00:40:30,710
Rigo so it was just an ability that she

774
00:40:35,620 --> 00:40:33,680
had so I mean there was I was totally

775
00:40:38,580 --> 00:40:35,630
convinced I don't know I don't think

776
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:38,590
there were magnets under the table okay

777
00:40:43,810 --> 00:40:42,170
so that's interesting so he put these

778
00:40:47,890 --> 00:40:43,820
objects under a fish tank and then

779
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:47,900
filmed it yes in the basement of the

780
00:40:56,109 --> 00:40:53,810
home with the medium uh-huh so the Coxes

781
00:40:58,480 --> 00:40:56,119
controls and one of the things I create

782
00:41:02,470 --> 00:40:58,490
his controls which were really rather

783
00:41:04,750 --> 00:41:02,480
poor but there was an amazing amount of

784
00:41:07,650 --> 00:41:04,760
the phenomena and this went on not just

785
00:41:10,180 --> 00:41:07,660
for years but for decades Wow and

786
00:41:15,010 --> 00:41:10,190
McClellan's book goes into it in great

787
00:41:17,790 --> 00:41:15,020
detail it's a very liminal group but

788
00:41:20,020 --> 00:41:17,800
they work they would conduct seances

789
00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:20,030
some of the people would go into trance

790
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:22,609
there were full table levitations and a

791
00:41:30,130 --> 00:41:27,290
variety of other phenomena appearances

792
00:41:34,750 --> 00:41:30,140
of spirit forms and alike it's a

793
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:34,760
fascinating case and if anyone wants and

794
00:41:40,599 --> 00:41:37,250
it remains ambiguous and controversial

795
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:40,609
to this day but it is a book that has

796
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:42,970
come out within the last few months and

797
00:41:48,130 --> 00:41:46,130
if anyone wanting to get some idea of

798
00:41:50,349 --> 00:41:48,140
the problems involved in this research

799
00:41:53,260 --> 00:41:50,359
this might be a good place to start I

800
00:41:55,090 --> 00:41:53,270
don't know of any book like this because

801
00:41:58,210 --> 00:41:55,100
McLennan has been involved with this

802
00:42:00,550 --> 00:41:58,220
over decades and he's a sociologist and

803
00:42:03,970 --> 00:42:00,560
writes from that perspective but also a

804
00:42:05,980 --> 00:42:03,980
participant and the narrative that he

805
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:05,990
provides in the book is quite

806
00:42:11,020 --> 00:42:08,210
interesting fascinating actually

807
00:42:14,349 --> 00:42:11,030
did he come to any conclusion in the

808
00:42:17,349 --> 00:42:14,359
book well you have to read the book oh

809
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:17,359
I'm not you know I I'm featured in the

810
00:42:21,099 --> 00:42:19,130
book he and I do have

811
00:42:24,670 --> 00:42:21,109
arguments about you know what all this

812
00:42:25,509 --> 00:42:24,680
means so I will let Jim writing speak

813
00:42:29,769 --> 00:42:25,519
for itself

814
00:42:32,589 --> 00:42:29,779
I'm convinced that what I saw in part

815
00:42:37,029 --> 00:42:32,599
was fraud there were other parts I don't

816
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:37,039
know apparently a German group a newer

817
00:42:47,380 --> 00:42:42,249
group that has begun this sort of

818
00:42:50,499 --> 00:42:47,390
activity there are a number of groups

819
00:42:54,219 --> 00:42:50,509
but the Felix group is group that's it

820
00:43:00,370 --> 00:42:54,229
around the time movie very interesting

821
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:00,380
case he has been caught in trickery it's

822
00:43:05,769 --> 00:43:02,930
I think it's more complicated than that

823
00:43:09,999 --> 00:43:05,779
I can't speak on in great depth but

824
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:10,009
there there have been there's been a few

825
00:43:14,499 --> 00:43:11,930
reports in the Journal of scientific

826
00:43:15,759 --> 00:43:14,509
exploration and a researcher named

827
00:43:19,420 --> 00:43:15,769
Michael Nam

828
00:43:23,789 --> 00:43:19,430
has provided some very sharp criticisms

829
00:43:27,099 --> 00:43:23,799
yes and I find his criticisms compelling

830
00:43:29,709 --> 00:43:27,109
but the sociology around it and I've

831
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:29,719
known people who've been in this in the

832
00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:34,130
circle with Felix circle and I'm very

833
00:43:40,420 --> 00:43:37,609
skeptical of it on the other hand Kai

834
00:43:44,189 --> 00:43:40,430
mugie himself is a very intriguing

835
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:44,199
character so I think it's worth studying

836
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:47,930
but I don't think that we have strong

837
00:43:53,769 --> 00:43:51,410
evidence for psychokinesis there

838
00:43:55,449 --> 00:43:53,779
one of the main researchers one of the

839
00:43:57,279 --> 00:43:55,459
people who've been is prominent as a

840
00:44:00,549 --> 00:43:57,289
researcher is a guy named Steven Brody

841
00:44:03,069 --> 00:44:00,559
who is a philosophy professor but has

842
00:44:05,949 --> 00:44:03,079
absolutely his last I talked him he has

843
00:44:08,459 --> 00:44:05,959
absolutely no background in magic you

844
00:44:12,459 --> 00:44:08,469
what anyone who professionally

845
00:44:14,709 --> 00:44:12,469
investigates macro PK must have a

846
00:44:18,430 --> 00:44:14,719
background in magic

847
00:44:20,739 --> 00:44:18,440
Rowdy seems to have absolutely none that

848
00:44:23,829 --> 00:44:20,749
rules him out as a competent

849
00:44:27,180 --> 00:44:23,839
professional I'm sorry about our guest

850
00:44:32,539 --> 00:44:27,190
here and what I think that he is very

851
00:44:36,769 --> 00:44:32,549
good at is sort of the idea of in

852
00:44:39,199 --> 00:44:36,779
and you know the thoughts about negative

853
00:44:42,199 --> 00:44:39,209
intention as well as positive intention

854
00:44:45,019 --> 00:44:42,209
and how that might work that's where I

855
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:45,029
think he excels he's a very interesting

856
00:44:50,089 --> 00:44:47,130
man to listen to but you are correct

857
00:44:52,059 --> 00:44:50,099
he's not a professional magician he

858
00:44:55,009 --> 00:44:52,069
doesn't know all the magicians tricks

859
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:55,019
right right yeah as a philosophy is very

860
00:44:59,479 --> 00:44:56,729
interesting you know I like reading some

861
00:45:01,789 --> 00:44:59,489
ways philosophical works why do you say

862
00:45:04,390 --> 00:45:01,799
he's important why do you say it's so

863
00:45:07,999 --> 00:45:04,400
important to have a background in magic

864
00:45:10,370 --> 00:45:08,009
because there are four most for macro

865
00:45:14,150 --> 00:45:10,380
pique that's the physical object there's

866
00:45:18,229 --> 00:45:14,160
two basic alternatives it's either real

867
00:45:20,509 --> 00:45:18,239
or it's fake you have to know how to

868
00:45:22,849 --> 00:45:20,519
fake this and the methods used even

869
00:45:26,359 --> 00:45:22,859
magicians will miss methods you know I

870
00:45:29,359 --> 00:45:26,369
have I used to be moderately active in

871
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:29,369
the magic world mm-hmm I would go to the

872
00:45:34,669 --> 00:45:31,650
conventions and I remember seeing I'd go

873
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:34,679
to remember one going to a convention

874
00:45:41,539 --> 00:45:38,729
and being shown how a trick is done two

875
00:45:44,569 --> 00:45:41,549
months later I went to a lecture the

876
00:45:46,219 --> 00:45:44,579
same method was was used and I had no

877
00:45:51,199 --> 00:45:46,229
idea that's how it was done

878
00:45:53,299 --> 00:45:51,209
haha it takes and it's a lot of

879
00:45:56,779 --> 00:45:53,309
experience to start recognizing oh so

880
00:45:59,719 --> 00:45:56,789
you want several magicians involved if

881
00:46:03,769 --> 00:45:59,729
it involves simple observation if you

882
00:46:07,609 --> 00:46:03,779
have control over the situation

883
00:46:08,959 --> 00:46:07,619
you still need magicians to assess okay

884
00:46:10,609 --> 00:46:08,969
how do you get around the controls

885
00:46:13,339 --> 00:46:10,619
because there have been a number of pair

886
00:46:15,380 --> 00:46:13,349
of psychological experiments where the

887
00:46:17,059 --> 00:46:15,390
researchers thought they were in control

888
00:46:18,380 --> 00:46:17,069
but if you read the report and

889
00:46:22,849 --> 00:46:18,390
understand what was going on

890
00:46:24,380 --> 00:46:22,859
no the actually the subject the PK agent

891
00:46:27,049 --> 00:46:24,390
actually had control of the situation

892
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:27,059
and the researchers had no idea that was

893
00:46:32,779 --> 00:46:28,890
happening what do you think of on go

894
00:46:36,140 --> 00:46:32,789
Swan in that case well Ingo was mostly

895
00:46:39,769 --> 00:46:36,150
didn't did very little or no macro PK

896
00:46:42,439 --> 00:46:39,779
work it was the the PK he did on

897
00:46:44,929 --> 00:46:42,449
thermistors was statistically analyzed I

898
00:46:46,460 --> 00:46:44,939
was frightened Ingo and I were friendly

899
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:46,470
I would go up and

900
00:46:51,830 --> 00:46:48,690
with him and I in fact they even did a

901
00:46:58,150 --> 00:46:51,840
ghost investigation of his building so I

902
00:47:02,330 --> 00:46:58,160
like Ingo Ingo was a very very odd

903
00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:02,340
character I never saw him engage in

904
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:05,310
fraud but I never saw or saw him try to

905
00:47:11,830 --> 00:47:08,880
do macro pique that's where the most

906
00:47:14,089 --> 00:47:11,840
highly like high likelihood of fraud in

907
00:47:18,290 --> 00:47:14,099
parapsychological research is like is

908
00:47:23,900 --> 00:47:18,300
bound to occur a lot of skeptics out

909
00:47:27,290 --> 00:47:23,910
there famously criticized Ingo because

910
00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:27,300
of his metal bending prowess which of

911
00:47:33,140 --> 00:47:29,609
course it is I know as far as I know

912
00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:33,150
Ingo never bent metal I've never seen

913
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:35,040
any report that Ingo did that on

914
00:47:41,870 --> 00:47:38,640
television he did I don't believe that I

915
00:47:44,420 --> 00:47:41,880
don't believe that I uri geller yes Ingo

916
00:47:46,970 --> 00:47:44,430
I have never seen him sorry I'm sorry I

917
00:47:49,099 --> 00:47:46,980
was talking about I'm sorry I conflated

918
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:49,109
the two people I'm all they're very

919
00:47:55,730 --> 00:47:49,530
different

920
00:47:59,480 --> 00:47:55,740
his past and Yuri's still with us

921
00:48:01,490 --> 00:47:59,490
yeah no Yuri has admitted Yuri has

922
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:01,500
admitted in his one of his biographies

923
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:03,650
that he is tricks hmm

924
00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:06,510
there's no no he came out and said that

925
00:48:13,460 --> 00:48:10,710
that he had and Ingo was always kind of

926
00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:13,470
pleased to have urug out in front and

927
00:48:17,150 --> 00:48:15,510
center and taking all the flak so Ingo

928
00:48:20,300 --> 00:48:17,160
would just you know wouldn't have to

929
00:48:23,089 --> 00:48:20,310
deal with the critics near so much yes

930
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:23,099
I'm really College eyes to the memory of

931
00:48:28,130 --> 00:48:26,160
Ingo Swann photo-sharing I think he's

932
00:48:30,020 --> 00:48:28,140
probably laughing about it okay right

933
00:48:32,180 --> 00:48:30,030
because there were very different people

934
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:32,190
but they oh yeah they worked in turn

935
00:48:38,359 --> 00:48:34,530
around the same time frame and they both

936
00:48:44,930 --> 00:48:38,369
work out out at Stanford Research with

937
00:48:48,079 --> 00:48:44,940
right right Harold - and our friend

938
00:48:50,599 --> 00:48:48,089
Russell Targ so which brings us to some

939
00:48:55,450 --> 00:48:50,609
things that you had said you are working

940
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:55,460
on to some extent now which involves

941
00:49:01,520 --> 00:48:59,760
UFOs and remote viewing and so forth

942
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:01,530
so did you want to share some of that

943
00:49:06,140 --> 00:49:04,170
with us well I can talk a little bit

944
00:49:09,830 --> 00:49:06,150
about that yes I've had a long-term

945
00:49:12,620 --> 00:49:09,840
interest in the UFO phenomena I started

946
00:49:15,770 --> 00:49:12,630
attending meetings of the New York 14

947
00:49:20,380 --> 00:49:15,780
Society in the mid 1980s and that was

948
00:49:23,330 --> 00:49:20,390
run by John keel and John keel Knight

949
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:23,340
eventually became friends and we talked

950
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:26,640
on the phone fairly often and John keel

951
00:49:33,850 --> 00:49:29,370
was one is one of the one of the most

952
00:49:40,700 --> 00:49:33,860
important investigators of the UFO topic

953
00:49:46,370 --> 00:49:40,710
and reading his books there were lots of

954
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:46,380
mythological types of creatures that he

955
00:49:53,590 --> 00:49:50,610
reported on very odd events and he and

956
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:53,600
Jacques Valle a really provided some

957
00:50:02,360 --> 00:49:57,450
alternative ideas to the whole idea of

958
00:50:05,350 --> 00:50:02,370
ETS or extraterrestrials and so I have

959
00:50:08,330 --> 00:50:05,360
kind of extended that work with

960
00:50:10,700 --> 00:50:08,340
theoretical ideas from concept of

961
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:10,710
liminality and that's too much to go

962
00:50:20,750 --> 00:50:17,010
into here but it is what you will see in

963
00:50:22,820 --> 00:50:20,760
remote viewing the the connection

964
00:50:26,510 --> 00:50:22,830
between remote viewing and UFOs is

965
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:26,520
really really strong and I point out and

966
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:28,050
even with uri geller

967
00:50:36,110 --> 00:50:31,200
uri geller had UFO experience as a young

968
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:36,120
child and when uri geller was brought to

969
00:50:41,810 --> 00:50:38,730
stanford research institute for testing

970
00:50:43,850 --> 00:50:41,820
jacques filet at times was stationed on

971
00:50:49,100 --> 00:50:43,860
the roof of the building to watch for

972
00:50:52,630 --> 00:50:49,110
UFOs so the government researchers 45

973
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:52,640
years ago understood that there was some

974
00:50:59,390 --> 00:50:55,170
fundamental connection between the two

975
00:51:03,260 --> 00:50:59,400
and only now are people starting to wake

976
00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:03,270
up to this but the government

977
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:05,280
researchers understood there was a deep

978
00:51:08,930 --> 00:51:07,410
connection and I'm absolutely convinced

979
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:08,940
that they were on the right track with

980
00:51:13,530 --> 00:51:12,690
that well I know that Jeffrey Mitchell

981
00:51:16,590 --> 00:51:13,540
of some you

982
00:51:21,210 --> 00:51:16,600
ago in writing his book about the peak a

983
00:51:25,020 --> 00:51:21,220
man certainly saw a connection there yes

984
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:25,030
he did yes and Geoffrey was out working

985
00:51:30,750 --> 00:51:28,170
in the field you know with Ted Owens and

986
00:51:33,870 --> 00:51:30,760
understood that these people who get out

987
00:51:35,970 --> 00:51:33,880
in the field and get to know psychics

988
00:51:39,090 --> 00:51:35,980
will start to realize this fairly

989
00:51:42,270 --> 00:51:39,100
quickly a lot of people who work only in

990
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:42,280
the labs have relatively limited contact

991
00:51:48,830 --> 00:51:45,130
with psychics and a lot of pair of

992
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:48,840
psychologists even tend to shy away from

993
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:52,210
getting to know psychics socially I was

994
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:54,000
quite the opposite I was involved with

995
00:52:00,120 --> 00:51:57,610
psychic groups and set and mediums and

996
00:52:02,070 --> 00:52:00,130
contact these abductees and the like

997
00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:02,080
before I got involved with

998
00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:07,510
laboratory-based research so I had the

999
00:52:12,030 --> 00:52:09,520
scientific types especially people who

1000
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:12,040
go into psychology and get doctoral

1001
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:12,730
degrees

1002
00:52:20,130 --> 00:52:16,810
well they don't interact with ordinary

1003
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:20,140
people quite as effectively sometimes as

1004
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:22,930
they probably should but Miculek was

1005
00:52:26,460 --> 00:52:24,610
different you know he got out and really

1006
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:26,470
got to know a lot of different people

1007
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:31,690
but if you look at the research you look

1008
00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:34,450
at MUFON for instance they had it and

1009
00:52:39,810 --> 00:52:37,510
may still have a explicit policy for

1010
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:39,820
their state directors not to talk about

1011
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:43,290
psychic aspects of UFOs and if you go to

1012
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:45,250
parapsychology conventions you will

1013
00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:50,710
almost never see a top UFOs in a

1014
00:52:57,060 --> 00:52:52,870
parapsychology convention well that's a

1015
00:53:00,030 --> 00:52:57,070
shame both ways yeah yes and even in the

1016
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:00,040
Society for scientific exploration some

1017
00:53:05,550 --> 00:53:03,040
there they may have both topics but

1018
00:53:07,950 --> 00:53:05,560
there is very little overlap in

1019
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:07,960
exploring why that connection is there

1020
00:53:12,420 --> 00:53:10,240
well that would be the that would be the

1021
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:12,430
interesting part I mean like what would

1022
00:53:22,850 --> 00:53:16,570
be the basic underneath of both both of

1023
00:53:26,130 --> 00:53:22,860
these stuff that requires an a

1024
00:53:27,359 --> 00:53:26,140
structural analysis that comes out of

1025
00:53:32,029 --> 00:53:27,369
anthropology and

1026
00:53:37,019 --> 00:53:32,039
that and I I can't really effectively

1027
00:53:39,779 --> 00:53:37,029
convey that verbally / you know a phone

1028
00:53:43,039 --> 00:53:39,789
line when I present that work I always

1029
00:53:46,049 --> 00:53:43,049
use PowerPoint and the diagrams I use

1030
00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:46,059
typically are conveyed fairly

1031
00:53:48,269 --> 00:53:47,710
effectively to people who are familiar

1032
00:53:51,299 --> 00:53:48,279
with the field

1033
00:53:54,089 --> 00:53:51,309
mm-hm but it has to do with the fact

1034
00:53:57,960 --> 00:53:54,099
that there's this betwixt in between

1035
00:53:59,789 --> 00:53:57,970
this liminal area and i just hesitate to

1036
00:54:02,339 --> 00:53:59,799
go there i can show the connection

1037
00:54:05,579 --> 00:54:02,349
between ghosts and UFOs a little more

1038
00:54:08,749 --> 00:54:05,589
easily because ghosts are between life

1039
00:54:13,980 --> 00:54:08,759
and death they kind of challenge that

1040
00:54:17,519 --> 00:54:13,990
that notion that the dead and dead and

1041
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:17,529
alive are completely different well the

1042
00:54:23,339 --> 00:54:20,410
ghost goes to sort of in between much

1043
00:54:26,819 --> 00:54:23,349
the same with the UFOs UFOs fly between

1044
00:54:30,359 --> 00:54:26,829
the heavens and the earth they're in

1045
00:54:32,759 --> 00:54:30,369
this in-between state they're not of the

1046
00:54:34,710 --> 00:54:32,769
heavens necessarily fully but they seem

1047
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:34,720
to have some terrestrial properties of

1048
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:36,130
their metal or something there's

1049
00:54:40,019 --> 00:54:37,930
something there's some material or

1050
00:54:44,609 --> 00:54:40,029
physical aspect to them but they're

1051
00:54:46,499 --> 00:54:44,619
ambiguous now in most science this is

1052
00:54:48,509 --> 00:54:46,509
just anatomy you just can't you can't

1053
00:54:51,150 --> 00:54:48,519
deal with it that way but in

1054
00:54:54,210 --> 00:54:51,160
anthropology there is theoretical work

1055
00:54:57,569 --> 00:54:54,220
that addresses these types of concepts

1056
00:54:59,940 --> 00:54:57,579
and address it can be can using

1057
00:55:01,979 --> 00:54:59,950
empirical methods to address these types

1058
00:55:05,039 --> 00:55:01,989
of concepts it's not the usual

1059
00:55:08,069 --> 00:55:05,049
scientific way of thinking this is

1060
00:55:09,599 --> 00:55:08,079
becoming more understood within what's

1061
00:55:12,089 --> 00:55:09,609
called post structuralism and

1062
00:55:14,930 --> 00:55:12,099
post-modernism but even there there's a

1063
00:55:17,249 --> 00:55:14,940
real weariness of dabbling in the

1064
00:55:20,460 --> 00:55:17,259
approaching these areas however there

1065
00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:20,470
are a few people in it from a post

1066
00:55:23,970 --> 00:55:22,089
structuralist post modernist and

1067
00:55:25,799 --> 00:55:23,980
feminist and women's studies

1068
00:55:29,489 --> 00:55:25,809
perspectives that are offering some

1069
00:55:33,329 --> 00:55:29,499
really really intriguing ideas well that

1070
00:55:37,140 --> 00:55:33,339
sounds very interesting to me and i

1071
00:55:40,430 --> 00:55:37,150
wonder the obvious question now which i

1072
00:55:44,470 --> 00:55:40,440
feel almost obligated to ask you given

1073
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:44,480
and events is what do you think about

1074
00:55:52,819 --> 00:55:48,050
the folks with the to the stars Academy

1075
00:55:56,630 --> 00:55:52,829
particularly have more interest in Erik

1076
00:56:00,130 --> 00:55:56,640
Davis and how pulled off then the the

1077
00:56:05,359 --> 00:56:00,140
nice young man from blink-182

1078
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:05,369
okay I follow this moderately well but I

1079
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:08,400
have friends and colleagues they speak

1080
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:11,040
with I was out at a conference in

1081
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:13,290
California contacted in the desert a few

1082
00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:16,490
weeks ago talked to Richard Dahl and

1083
00:56:30,890 --> 00:56:23,160
Linda Moulton Howe and in several others

1084
00:56:34,670 --> 00:56:30,900
the I the general consensus is that what

1085
00:56:38,059 --> 00:56:34,680
we have is not disclosure but something

1086
00:56:41,450 --> 00:56:38,069
like confirmation Oh grant Cameron is

1087
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:41,460
another yes okay the government is the

1088
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:44,250
government is admitting something but

1089
00:56:52,069 --> 00:56:49,050
they're dribbling it out slowly I don't

1090
00:56:57,740 --> 00:56:52,079
fully there's no way we can fully trust

1091
00:57:00,829 --> 00:56:57,750
what they're telling us it could be they

1092
00:57:04,599 --> 00:57:00,839
are very coy about what they release and

1093
00:57:07,010 --> 00:57:04,609
this is almost certainly intentional

1094
00:57:10,700 --> 00:57:07,020
perhaps they think this is too

1095
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:10,710
revolutionary that and I suspect maybe

1096
00:57:16,490 --> 00:57:13,440
they're right these phenomena have a

1097
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:16,500
scary aspect these phenomena are not all

1098
00:57:23,599 --> 00:57:20,640
benign they themselves may not really

1099
00:57:25,550 --> 00:57:23,609
understand they may not understand the

1100
00:57:27,140 --> 00:57:25,560
nature of what they're dealing with so

1101
00:57:29,839 --> 00:57:27,150
they're going very slowly

1102
00:57:33,230 --> 00:57:29,849
it's fascinating however it's a

1103
00:57:37,069 --> 00:57:33,240
fascinating turn of events shall we say

1104
00:57:40,819 --> 00:57:37,079
it is but it's also very confusing very

1105
00:57:46,430 --> 00:57:40,829
ambiguous very trickster yes

1106
00:57:51,230 --> 00:57:46,440
so I watch this and I I think Tom

1107
00:57:53,300 --> 00:57:51,240
DeLonge has been selected he was elected

1108
00:57:54,050 --> 00:57:53,310
by the intelligence agencies and built

1109
00:57:55,670 --> 00:57:54,060
up

1110
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:55,680
Kameron goes into this in great detail

1111
00:57:59,890 --> 00:57:57,450
as how this occurred and this has

1112
00:58:02,630 --> 00:57:59,900
happened before we have seen other

1113
00:58:05,270 --> 00:58:02,640
efforts like this in the past but this

1114
00:58:07,070 --> 00:58:05,280
seems more extensive than we've seen in

1115
00:58:10,940 --> 00:58:07,080
the past so I take it very very

1116
00:58:13,490 --> 00:58:10,950
seriously well I have two things too to

1117
00:58:16,700 --> 00:58:13,500
add to the discussion and you can speak

1118
00:58:20,420 --> 00:58:16,710
to these ideas if you care to one thing

1119
00:58:22,430 --> 00:58:20,430
is I'm fascinated to start off with with

1120
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:22,440
the whole thing I'm fascinated with all

1121
00:58:28,610 --> 00:58:25,680
the personalities involved but I would

1122
00:58:31,340 --> 00:58:28,620
say just off the top of my head it's

1123
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:31,350
doubtful to me that anybody's walking

1124
00:58:36,110 --> 00:58:33,090
out of the Defense Intelligence Agency

1125
00:58:38,990 --> 00:58:36,120
with a couple of videotapes under their

1126
00:58:43,010 --> 00:58:39,000
arm and nobody's saying anything that

1127
00:58:45,350 --> 00:58:43,020
just that belies my feelings of reality

1128
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:45,360
about the situation so it's my

1129
00:58:50,990 --> 00:58:48,210
contention that it's intentional that

1130
00:58:53,510 --> 00:58:51,000
the stuff is being released and and and

1131
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:53,520
louie's Elizondo as nice a gentleman as

1132
00:58:58,550 --> 00:58:55,650
he is and very intelligent and

1133
00:59:00,830 --> 00:58:58,560
bright-eyed it just seems to me

1134
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:00,840
illogical to think that he just stuff

1135
00:59:06,170 --> 00:59:03,450
these things under his arm and took his

1136
00:59:08,620 --> 00:59:06,180
walking papers that that does not seem

1137
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:08,630
to make any sense oh oh for sure

1138
00:59:15,770 --> 00:59:11,970
absolutely and if you go back and you

1139
00:59:22,670 --> 00:59:15,780
look at the Podesta emails that were

1140
00:59:26,810 --> 00:59:22,680
released by WikiLeaks well Leslie Kane's

1141
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:26,820
name is in those emails almost three

1142
00:59:34,940 --> 00:59:31,920
years before this this disclosure so the

1143
00:59:36,980 --> 00:59:34,950
and other reporters or other writers for

1144
00:59:39,830 --> 00:59:36,990
the New York Times were mentioned years

1145
00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:39,840
ago so this has been planned for quite

1146
00:59:44,570 --> 00:59:40,910
some time

1147
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:44,580
Leslie Kane basically is just reporting

1148
00:59:49,730 --> 00:59:47,280
what the intelligence agencies want

1149
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:49,740
there is no investigative reporting done

1150
00:59:56,110 --> 00:59:51,930
by the New York Times they are just the

1151
01:00:01,040 --> 00:59:56,120
mouthpiece this is what we should expect

1152
01:00:04,070 --> 01:00:01,050
this is how it's being played the other

1153
01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:04,080
observation that I'd like to make about

1154
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:06,400
it is that

1155
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:09,130
and how many billions of people on the

1156
01:00:14,220 --> 01:00:12,010
face of the earth they say somewhere

1157
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:14,230
above seven billion some people say

1158
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:16,210
somewhere above eight billion but it

1159
01:00:21,569 --> 01:00:18,490
really doesn't matter the exact number

1160
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:21,579
and what the reports have come out that

1161
01:00:27,269 --> 01:00:23,650
people aren't going to be shocked by

1162
01:00:28,620 --> 01:00:27,279
there being aliens and stuff they're not

1163
01:00:31,319 --> 01:00:28,630
really it's not really going to shock

1164
01:00:34,140 --> 01:00:31,329
most people but if it only shocks and

1165
01:00:37,109 --> 01:00:34,150
disturbs I mean really mentally disturbs

1166
01:00:40,549 --> 01:00:37,119
one in a hundred or one in a thousand

1167
01:00:45,450 --> 01:00:40,559
that's still a whole lot of folks well

1168
01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:45,460
maybe but maybe maybe these phenomena

1169
01:00:49,470 --> 01:00:47,680
will be shocking maybe they will be

1170
01:00:52,079 --> 01:00:49,480
destabilizing the fact that they're

1171
01:00:52,859 --> 01:00:52,089
given attention may affect the nature of

1172
01:00:59,430 --> 01:00:52,869
the phenomena

1173
01:01:01,380 --> 01:00:59,440
aha so no honestly what I think is going

1174
01:01:03,930 --> 01:01:01,390
to happen is let's say it's disclosed

1175
01:01:06,839 --> 01:01:03,940
that these are indeed aliens and they're

1176
01:01:09,390 --> 01:01:06,849
here and they just came because they

1177
01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:09,400
felt it was part of their nature to

1178
01:01:13,230 --> 01:01:11,680
explore they explored they said yeah

1179
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:13,240
that's interesting but not that great

1180
01:01:17,819 --> 01:01:15,730
we're leaving I think most people would

1181
01:01:19,260 --> 01:01:17,829
just continue on with their life I mean

1182
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:19,270
you'd say wow it's really fascinating

1183
01:01:23,819 --> 01:01:21,490
how about that there is other life out

1184
01:01:26,190 --> 01:01:23,829
there that's great and then go on pay

1185
01:01:28,109 --> 01:01:26,200
taxes go their job I honestly don't

1186
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:28,119
think it's going to be that big a deal

1187
01:01:33,660 --> 01:01:31,450
doesn't have to be most people can do

1188
01:01:36,059 --> 01:01:33,670
that like let's say that York no I know

1189
01:01:38,730 --> 01:01:36,069
how you're saying that there's no one in

1190
01:01:40,260 --> 01:01:38,740
a thousand who's like completely flips

1191
01:01:42,870 --> 01:01:40,270
their lid and that's a whole lot of

1192
01:01:46,910 --> 01:01:42,880
characters slipping your lids every day

1193
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:46,920
over nothing anyways what if these

1194
01:01:53,730 --> 01:01:50,890
beings have extraordinary powers what if

1195
01:01:56,490 --> 01:01:53,740
they have powers or like Venus's

1196
01:01:58,740 --> 01:01:56,500
ourselves or fairies well that's and of

1197
01:02:01,440 --> 01:01:58,750
religions and then that's another whole

1198
01:02:04,950 --> 01:02:01,450
big topic to get into because you know

1199
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:04,960
only the religious deity of whichever

1200
01:02:09,839 --> 01:02:07,210
particular religion it is has those

1201
01:02:12,809 --> 01:02:09,849
powers and if somebody or something else

1202
01:02:15,269 --> 01:02:12,819
has them well that's not good well well

1203
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:15,279
no a lot of religions are policy istic

1204
01:02:20,220 --> 01:02:17,650
in some sense or other and there may be

1205
01:02:28,220 --> 01:02:22,980
entities well don't forget that accan

1206
01:02:33,420 --> 01:02:28,230
has the most accomplished astrobiology

1207
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:33,430
yeah facility ever anywhere they're

1208
01:02:37,980 --> 01:02:36,130
planning I go back to thinking ahead

1209
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:37,990
the whole idea I don't know if they're

1210
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:40,450
there visitors from space or in two

1211
01:02:45,570 --> 01:02:43,510
dimensional or tricksters or discarnate

1212
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:45,580
beings and it might be all of those

1213
01:02:52,349 --> 01:02:47,770
things there's going to be mission bells

1214
01:02:55,230 --> 01:02:52,359
on Mars one day but but what you know I

1215
01:02:58,950 --> 01:02:55,240
I would just say that it's it still

1216
01:03:01,109 --> 01:02:58,960
comes down to man's ego human ego that

1217
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:01,119
we think we're the next thing right next

1218
01:03:06,090 --> 01:03:02,890
to God and there could be a lot of stuff

1219
01:03:08,340 --> 01:03:06,100
in between by god again I don't want to

1220
01:03:10,260 --> 01:03:08,350
get into the religious thing so you had

1221
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:10,270
that whole thing with Copernicus and

1222
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:12,850
Galileo and all but the people most

1223
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:15,520
upset were the people in power your

1224
01:03:21,150 --> 01:03:18,490
average peasant and serf could care less

1225
01:03:22,770 --> 01:03:21,160
they go oh we go around the Sun oh oh

1226
01:03:26,900 --> 01:03:22,780
you always thought just someone around

1227
01:03:30,330 --> 01:03:26,910
us oh whoa okay I mean that was to me

1228
01:03:33,630 --> 01:03:30,340
99% of the population the 1% whose power

1229
01:03:36,359 --> 01:03:33,640
depended on the Sun going around us they

1230
01:03:38,340 --> 01:03:36,369
were upset okay well I wouldn't disagree

1231
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:38,350
with you I would just say that we're

1232
01:03:43,710 --> 01:03:41,290
coming from different parts of different

1233
01:03:47,550 --> 01:03:43,720
ideas but that's why we're here together

1234
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:47,560
on shattered reality we are we sometimes

1235
01:03:53,490 --> 01:03:49,330
argue with ourselves instead of with our

1236
01:03:57,660 --> 01:03:53,500
guests have slight disagreements so what

1237
01:04:02,190 --> 01:03:57,670
say you George about what disclosure

1238
01:04:03,599 --> 01:04:02,200
let's say one day they've land on all

1239
01:04:06,300 --> 01:04:03,609
right let's take them off the White

1240
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:06,310
House lawn for now and let's say they

1241
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:09,730
landed on the University of Kansas out

1242
01:04:18,450 --> 01:04:16,090
in Manhattan Kansas and okay so you know

1243
01:04:20,700 --> 01:04:18,460
it's the heartland it's the middle of

1244
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:20,710
the country and they decided okay

1245
01:04:25,980 --> 01:04:23,290
there's good press coverage there so

1246
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:25,990
we'll land there Manhattan Kansas nice

1247
01:04:30,420 --> 01:04:27,690
big open fields

1248
01:04:31,980 --> 01:04:30,430
well they might we've never seen

1249
01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:31,990
anything like that before so I don't

1250
01:04:36,990 --> 01:04:33,760
think we should expect it now

1251
01:04:39,450 --> 01:04:37,000
the these phenomena but that's what the

1252
01:04:41,700 --> 01:04:39,460
trickster does he comes around and he

1253
01:04:48,060 --> 01:04:41,710
says oh you weren't expecting this were

1254
01:04:50,099 --> 01:04:48,070
you I know but I really think your idea

1255
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:50,109
the trickster the whole the whole

1256
01:04:55,470 --> 01:04:52,290
thought behind it is really just

1257
01:04:57,330 --> 01:04:55,480
fascinating and it just to me it's as

1258
01:05:00,359 --> 01:04:57,340
you said it's not really an entity it

1259
01:05:03,330 --> 01:05:00,369
just reflects on such an intriguing part

1260
01:05:05,550 --> 01:05:03,340
of human personality that I think we all

1261
01:05:09,450 --> 01:05:05,560
play tricksters on each other from time

1262
01:05:12,390 --> 01:05:09,460
to time don't you yes everyone has some

1263
01:05:14,910 --> 01:05:12,400
aspects of don't you but within them

1264
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:14,920
yeah when we look at the paranormal the

1265
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:21,250
paranormal looks back at us yes yes and

1266
01:05:26,250 --> 01:05:23,530
it interacts with us and it responds

1267
01:05:28,050 --> 01:05:26,260
that's the reflexivity part of it that

1268
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:28,060
you discussed correct Wow

1269
01:05:33,510 --> 01:05:31,330
yeah yeah I like that thought to that so

1270
01:05:36,900 --> 01:05:33,520
it's not just the trickster being out

1271
01:05:40,020 --> 01:05:36,910
there somewhere doing tricks but but

1272
01:05:44,070 --> 01:05:40,030
that it it it actually requires us to

1273
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:44,080
interact with it yes it's thank sure

1274
01:05:48,420 --> 01:05:47,050
yeah Wow interesting yeah I don't know

1275
01:05:51,330 --> 01:05:48,430
how you came up with all these thoughts

1276
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:51,340
I really it had I was always surprised

1277
01:05:56,420 --> 01:05:53,530
when I heard you speak about it because

1278
01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:56,430
it was something that was so out of my

1279
01:06:00,270 --> 01:05:58,720
experience or thought you know I just

1280
01:06:01,980 --> 01:06:00,280
never thought it but I'm not to say it

1281
01:06:04,590 --> 01:06:01,990
was good better a different it just

1282
01:06:07,050 --> 01:06:04,600
hadn't occurred to me and I used to

1283
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:07,060
think wow trickster Wow yeah as a

1284
01:06:14,940 --> 01:06:11,850
practitioner in the psychic field I

1285
01:06:18,260 --> 01:06:14,950
didn't know it was called a trickster

1286
01:06:21,690 --> 01:06:18,270
until you know say five years ago or

1287
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:21,700
seven years ago but I was very aware

1288
01:06:30,660 --> 01:06:25,570
that the information that was being

1289
01:06:34,020 --> 01:06:30,670
received might not be true in flight

1290
01:06:38,010 --> 01:06:34,030
from UFO look like that oh the

1291
01:06:40,530 --> 01:06:38,020
contactees something happened to most of

1292
01:06:42,660 --> 01:06:40,540
those people some of them were frauds

1293
01:06:45,510 --> 01:06:42,670
but something happened to most of those

1294
01:06:47,970 --> 01:06:45,520
people and what whatever happened to

1295
01:06:49,730 --> 01:06:47,980
them the entities that caused

1296
01:06:53,070 --> 01:06:49,740
the contact needs to come into being

1297
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:53,080
sometimes they were told wise or

1298
01:06:58,560 --> 01:06:55,090
sometimes maybe they were told stuff

1299
01:07:01,920 --> 01:06:58,570
that they couldn't quite comprehend and

1300
01:07:04,650 --> 01:07:01,930
their and their monkey brain added

1301
01:07:07,140 --> 01:07:04,660
another layer to it so it makes it seem

1302
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:07,150
like lies what do you think George oh

1303
01:07:11,550 --> 01:07:09,850
yes in John keel I think would fully

1304
01:07:15,359 --> 01:07:11,560
agree with you and he had plenty of

1305
01:07:18,330 --> 01:07:15,369
experience with contact these yeah this

1306
01:07:20,099 --> 01:07:18,340
is the nature of the phenomena how often

1307
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:20,109
and it can be very disruptive and

1308
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:23,410
destabilizing yeah and I understand why

1309
01:07:34,190 --> 01:07:27,490
people will not want to channel ETS

1310
01:07:39,540 --> 01:07:37,440
yeah you know and I think that comes

1311
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:39,550
back to another part of why a lot of it

1312
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:41,410
is not being investigated there's

1313
01:07:48,180 --> 01:07:43,210
something very frightening about it too

1314
01:07:51,750 --> 01:07:48,190
because with almost invariably with the

1315
01:07:53,910 --> 01:07:51,760
contact tease the contact occurs late at

1316
01:07:55,980 --> 01:07:53,920
night you're alone and these freaky

1317
01:07:59,820 --> 01:07:55,990
little things show up I mean I don't

1318
01:08:01,970 --> 01:07:59,830
care if they're from Pleiades or if

1319
01:08:04,260 --> 01:08:01,980
they're from a bad guy down the block

1320
01:08:06,270 --> 01:08:04,270
anything that wakes you up in the middle

1321
01:08:09,810 --> 01:08:06,280
of the night when you're alone I think

1322
01:08:12,570 --> 01:08:09,820
is very frightening very alarming well

1323
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:12,580
yes and if you look at earlier cultures

1324
01:08:17,490 --> 01:08:15,250
the people who dealt with these kinds of

1325
01:08:19,440 --> 01:08:17,500
entities and who were in charge were the

1326
01:08:21,630 --> 01:08:19,450
shamans they went through a lot of

1327
01:08:23,700 --> 01:08:21,640
ritual purification they were set aside

1328
01:08:26,039 --> 01:08:23,710
from the rest of the tribe and

1329
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:26,049
approaching this realm was always looked

1330
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:28,210
upon as somewhat dangerous yeah there

1331
01:08:32,490 --> 01:08:30,730
were rituals of protection yes yeah I

1332
01:08:35,130 --> 01:08:32,500
think that tells us something about the

1333
01:08:37,890 --> 01:08:35,140
nature of these phenomena yes there is a

1334
01:08:39,930 --> 01:08:37,900
frightening and scary aspect we

1335
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:39,940
shouldn't be shying away from that well

1336
01:08:43,440 --> 01:08:41,770
it's because we don't understand it

1337
01:08:45,420 --> 01:08:43,450
I mean thunder used to be very

1338
01:08:47,400 --> 01:08:45,430
frightening meteorites used to be from

1339
01:08:49,740 --> 01:08:47,410
meteors used to be frightening but now

1340
01:08:53,910 --> 01:08:49,750
that you understand it it's not quite as

1341
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:53,920
scary bizarre but thunder and lightning

1342
01:08:58,440 --> 01:08:55,810
don't have their own intelligence

1343
01:08:59,880 --> 01:08:58,450
these phenomena may have their its own

1344
01:09:02,060 --> 01:08:59,890
intelligence right

1345
01:09:05,940 --> 01:09:02,070
that puts it in the different categories

1346
01:09:09,900 --> 01:09:05,950
right right yeah no definitely yeah I

1347
01:09:14,130 --> 01:09:09,910
see what you mean yeah like yeah so

1348
01:09:16,700 --> 01:09:14,140
George what's up next for you well I've

1349
01:09:20,250 --> 01:09:16,710
got lots of theoretical work I'm doing I

1350
01:09:24,740 --> 01:09:20,260
I spent a lot of my time reading going

1351
01:09:27,570 --> 01:09:24,750
to libraries and online so I vote I'm

1352
01:09:30,270 --> 01:09:27,580
the next lecture I'm giving will be in

1353
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:30,280
Lilydale and a little over a week we

1354
01:09:36,450 --> 01:09:33,010
talking about transgender in the

1355
01:09:38,570 --> 01:09:36,460
paranormal and there's a lot I could say

1356
01:09:44,490 --> 01:09:38,580
about that that might be another time

1357
01:09:46,710 --> 01:09:44,500
but transgender is very related to the

1358
01:09:52,110 --> 01:09:46,720
paranormal and people who have been

1359
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:52,120
trance or gay have had a long long

1360
01:09:58,650 --> 01:09:55,810
association with psychic abilities hmm

1361
01:10:02,640 --> 01:09:58,660
this goes back thousands of years and in

1362
01:10:04,940 --> 01:10:02,650
all pretty much worldwide so that's what

1363
01:10:09,150 --> 01:10:04,950
I've been we'll be speaking on and

1364
01:10:12,230 --> 01:10:09,160
topics somewhat related to that as well

1365
01:10:14,390 --> 01:10:12,240
as a variety of philosophical issues

1366
01:10:17,220 --> 01:10:14,400
that emerge from what's called

1367
01:10:19,350 --> 01:10:17,230
post-modernism and post-structuralism so

1368
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:19,360
I imagine we could get all these dates

1369
01:10:29,130 --> 01:10:26,770
on your website no I know if you look at

1370
01:10:30,180 --> 01:10:29,140
Little Italy I generally don't publicize

1371
01:10:35,340 --> 01:10:30,190
much of what I do

1372
01:10:37,620 --> 01:10:35,350
oh can i I'm not I I do podcast when

1373
01:10:40,350 --> 01:10:37,630
people ask me I'm not really a self

1374
01:10:42,270 --> 01:10:40,360
promoter I don't you know people ask me

1375
01:10:44,970 --> 01:10:42,280
to speak I'll be happy to do that but I

1376
01:10:47,010 --> 01:10:44,980
don't go out looking for it and I have a

1377
01:10:53,220 --> 01:10:47,020
website and I've also got a few papers

1378
01:10:55,190 --> 01:10:53,230
on academia.edu mm-hmm so well so you're

1379
01:10:58,500 --> 01:10:55,200
doing this for the love of the game then

1380
01:11:01,350 --> 01:10:58,510
well yeah I think it's important and you

1381
01:11:04,050 --> 01:11:01,360
know this is something I can work on and

1382
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:04,060
make a contribution well yeah well you

1383
01:11:10,020 --> 01:11:06,010
know it's a long time ago I applied for

1384
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:10,030
a job in genetics and the woman that was

1385
01:11:13,710 --> 01:11:11,770
talking to me I was very interested in

1386
01:11:16,950 --> 01:11:13,720
and she said well you know before

1387
01:11:21,210 --> 01:11:16,960
you apply any further my f2 generation

1388
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:21,220
is trees and I said trees I go but

1389
01:11:27,390 --> 01:11:23,170
that's a lifetime and she said well

1390
01:11:30,690 --> 01:11:27,400
someone has to start and and I think in

1391
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:30,700
your case definitely and certainly all

1392
01:11:34,770 --> 01:11:32,650
the other researchers that you mentioned

1393
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:34,780
but it is it's a very important topic

1394
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:37,570
and it's scary to people because it's

1395
01:11:42,390 --> 01:11:39,850
not understood when it is understood it

1396
01:11:44,190 --> 01:11:42,400
loses the scariness and we have a little

1397
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:44,200
bit more control over things that

1398
01:11:48,390 --> 01:11:46,090
typically are not thought to be

1399
01:11:49,980 --> 01:11:48,400
controllable so I think you're doing a

1400
01:11:51,390 --> 01:11:49,990
great job I really do

1401
01:11:54,570 --> 01:11:51,400
well thank you we have been really

1402
01:11:57,150 --> 01:11:54,580
pleased to have you on board here today

1403
01:12:00,450 --> 01:11:57,160
and I'm hoping that you will agree to

1404
01:12:03,900 --> 01:12:00,460
come back to speak with us and maybe

1405
01:12:05,670 --> 01:12:03,910
even up be on a video podcast with us

1406
01:12:08,940 --> 01:12:05,680
should we decide to do something like

1407
01:12:14,100 --> 01:12:08,950
that since you're reasonably nearby well

1408
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:14,110
good yeah so thank you yeah oh oh yeah

1409
01:12:18,630 --> 01:12:16,570
of course thank you so much for us thank

1410
01:12:22,850 --> 01:12:18,640
you we really appreciate your being on

1411
01:12:28,650 --> 01:12:22,860
and we shall be in touch okay

1412
01:12:30,270 --> 01:12:28,660
okay thanks again I was lost in thought

1413
01:12:32,700 --> 01:12:30,280
here I'm sorry you brought up a lot of

1414
01:12:36,180 --> 01:12:32,710
topics and fruit you caught me by I'm

1415
01:12:41,610 --> 01:12:36,190
sitting there going like what okay thank

1416
01:12:46,170 --> 01:12:41,620
you so much George appreciated we have

1417
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:46,180
to make a few announcements okay and say

1418
01:12:53,220 --> 01:12:50,410
that if people would please agree to

1419
01:12:58,020 --> 01:12:53,230
like us on Facebook like us on our

1420
01:13:04,320 --> 01:12:58,030
websites and like us on YouTube I also

1421
01:13:10,980 --> 01:13:04,330
have put up a a photo a little photo

1422
01:13:13,230 --> 01:13:10,990
blog on on Instagram called shattered

1423
01:13:16,350 --> 01:13:13,240
reality podcast and I'm going to be more

1424
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:16,360
active with that coming up so you can

1425
01:13:24,510 --> 01:13:20,770
find us there and like us but please

1426
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:24,520
like us on shattered reality podcast.com

1427
01:13:31,230 --> 01:13:26,890
and shattered rial

1428
01:13:36,690 --> 01:13:31,240
Podcast wordpress.com and if you have

1429
01:13:42,180 --> 01:13:36,700
had a UFO experience or if you have had

1430
01:13:44,190 --> 01:13:42,190
an out-of-body experience or or if you

1431
01:13:46,650 --> 01:13:44,200
just find something unusual in your

1432
01:13:49,290 --> 01:13:46,660
everyday life and you're like what was

1433
01:13:51,660 --> 01:13:49,300
that then let us know maybe we could

1434
01:13:53,670 --> 01:13:51,670
help you with it yeah we can we can have

1435
01:13:56,190 --> 01:13:53,680
you on we can talk to you about it and

1436
01:13:59,810 --> 01:13:56,200
if you don't care to be on but you would

1437
01:14:05,280 --> 01:13:59,820
like to be mentioned on the podcast

1438
01:14:08,940 --> 01:14:05,290
please do have a written a short written

1439
01:14:11,750 --> 01:14:08,950
report on it this past week I received a

1440
01:14:15,990 --> 01:14:11,760
very interesting written report on

1441
01:14:20,730 --> 01:14:16,000
faroush a-- wordpress.com which is my

1442
01:14:25,950 --> 01:14:20,740
blog and some years ago i wrote an

1443
01:14:31,050 --> 01:14:25,960
article about huge black butterflies i

1444
01:14:34,170 --> 01:14:31,060
saw on my trip down to the monroe

1445
01:14:38,010 --> 01:14:34,180
institute and now after a number of

1446
01:14:40,740 --> 01:14:38,020
years a person wrote to me about a large

1447
01:14:43,700 --> 01:14:40,750
black butterfly that she saw that isn't

1448
01:14:47,490 --> 01:14:43,710
mentioned in any of the field guides on

1449
01:14:49,860 --> 01:14:47,500
on the internet or whatever and when I

1450
01:14:52,710 --> 01:14:49,870
saw my black butterflies they were not

1451
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:52,720
mentioned either and then last night I

1452
01:14:58,050 --> 01:14:56,170
saw a huge black moth I didn't look it

1453
01:15:00,330 --> 01:14:58,060
up because I didn't get a really close

1454
01:15:02,100 --> 01:15:00,340
look at it but it was a huge black moth

1455
01:15:04,380 --> 01:15:02,110
so sometimes these things are

1456
01:15:05,820 --> 01:15:04,390
synchronicities and we really want to